bigotry digs deep

[hoops]

I volunteer at the local LGBTQ center, one of the groups I run is a women's discussion group. Each session has a preset topic and thankfully the group is growing by leaps and bounds. A month or so back, I was asked by the program director of the center to ask the group to welcome Transgender women into the group to speak to us about their process. i was shocked by the reaction of the group. about 95% of them were hard set against it, they only wanted 'women' in the group and would feel less comfortable and unsafe with transgender women among us. "This is a lesbian group, we feel safe because we all know that" meanwhile there are bi women in the group, lesbians who are still in the closet, some who are still married and other 'deviations' with no problem. Here we are, in a community that has fought for and is still fighting for acceptance and our acceptance of others among us was unwelcome. I was appalled, still, being facilitator of the group, i had to keep some sort of peace. I did tactfully express my belief that we are all in the same boat and it seems wrong to not include others in the same situation. I "attacked" the subject in 4 or 5 different ways trying to get my point across, but it was clear it did not want to be heard. i went back to the program director who was as appalled as I am. I don't get it, I just don't get it. David's thread has brought it back to the front of my mind and i just wanted to share and see what thoughts might come back to me.
peace
hoops

[Eva]

Hoops, this is something I have seen here in Europe in women's groups too. I don't talk about the men's groups. They have their own discussions going on.

Bi's are not welcome because they 'act queer but in the end enjoy straight privileges' they will 'always leave a woman for a man when push comes to shove' or 'they carry diseases becauses they also f*** around with men'. Or 'they are promiscuous and can't commit to one relationship'.

Transwomen are not welcome because 'they are not real women', 'they are simply crossdressers' or 'they may live as a woman but you'll always notice that they have been men'.

The other way around transmen are not welcome because 'they chose to be men so what are they still doing among women' or 'they are traitors because they don't want to be women anymore' and by the way 'they are not real men either'.

Also in some countries a lot of transwomen become prostitutes because it's one of the few ways they can make money in a society that doesn't see them as sane people. So I have also heard it said that 'we don't want to allign ourselves with hookers'.

And these discussions are still going on. It is sad really.

I must say that I agree that I too have a desire for women's space instead of pure queerspace. Women's space is a broad term for me: everyone who once saw, sees now or will see herself as a woman. And everything in between those definitions. Seeing yourself as a woman is not about what kind of genitals someone has but about selfidentification for me. Queerspace is everyone packed together in the LGBTQI (I=intersexed) community. A beautiful place, but not exclusively. I need my women's space next to that.

Hoops, I think there are two things going on (besides outright discrimination by some) One is that your group might have a desire to maintain women's space. Because they enjoy it, need it, because it feels safe to them, because they feel it is one of the few places where being a woman who loves women is normal and not strange or other. Maybe because it is the one place where they feel they are not automatically considered to be straight or feel that they should be in the eyes of the majority. And it's a place where everything is about women for once. Men (born in a male body) don't exist there. And sometimes that is just very nice. Women's space is a personal need for some and a political issue a lot of lesbians feminists have worked hard for to achieve.

I think the other thing is that they maybe have no idea about is how being trans works. It's not simply about putting clothes on from 'the other' gender and then proclaiming yourself that gender. It's a journey, a development, step by step. It can take years and it never ends. It's about genderfluidity for some.

What might help is to educate your group on transexuality. And to show them that transpeople are not a threat to their women's space. I wish you and the transwoman you are talking about succes in this.

Big hug,

Eva

[DaveM]

A bit of a tangent on this, offered for acknowledgment or brickbats as may be required.

EVERYONE is entitled to "their own space", however they may interpret the phrase. And anyone intruding on that is....well, intruding. When people gather together in their own "safe space", however, the most likely reason for doing so is to be with people who face similar life issues. There would be little reason, for example, for people to gather together because they had the same eye color.

Where to draw the line? Only the people creating the "space" can say with certainty. But once a group becomes exclusive rather than inclusive, I believe they run the risk of defeating their own purpose. We all have to live in the same world however much we are able to retreat into our own on occasion. And if we begin excluding people from "our space"....eventually we're going to start shutting out portions of the world as well. The world doesn't change, as we all know all too well.

I am trying to speak universally here--I could say the same thing about the Boy Scouts as I could about any other organization (indeed, I could write pages on why I have problems with them!). Human beings are prone to hairsplitting, and if we take it too far, we run the risk of losing any gains we may receive by choosing who we prefer to associate with.

[hoops]

You both make very valid points, thank you for sharing
peace
hoops

[coffeegyrl]

I was asked by the program director of the center to ask the group to welcome Transgender women into the group to speak to us about their process.

They don't even want transwomen to visit the group? I have heard of lesbian groups that are dead set against admitting transwomen, because they are afraid that the group will become focused on "trans" rather than "women" (and it has happened) but to not even want to understand what they are going through, well that's not right.

[Randy & Betty in Pa]

Frightening, very frightening.... but again I have to say I agree with Dave.... This is the second time!!!! Just bear in mind one thing, predjudice/bigotry is not something we are born with, No, it's something that we have been carefully taught over our lifetime by those who felt they knew better how we should live our lives, act or think...

Best to you all

Old guy from Pa.

[Eva]

Where to draw the line? Only the people creating the "space" can say with certainty. But once a group becomes exclusive rather than inclusive, I believe they run the risk of defeating their own purpose.
Yes, I agree with you Dave. Besides that 'drawing the line' is always a difficult thing. Where does one draw a line? And based on what arguments?


I have heard of lesbian groups that are dead set against admitting transwomen, because they are afraid that the group will become focused on "trans" rather than "women" (and it has happened)
Yes, it has. But is that neccesarily a bad thing? It is a development transwomen are going through as women.

Eva

[hoops]

i guess i was looking at it from a place where we ( lesbian women) want to find acceptance yet we are unable to accept trans women who identify as lesbian. i do understand wanting your own space. I'm trying to be understanding.
peace
hoops

[Eva]

Any news, Hoopie? I'm interested.

Eva

[razal]

Have you ever noticed that those who have suffered the most abuse or who have been victims of great prejudice often become the worst perpetrators of that same treatment? ...and yet other victims of mistreatment are sensitized by it and are proportionately kind?

[hoops]

Eva, our program director has scheduled some "get to know us" speakers and mixers to make things a bit easier for those who are unsure. it's a start. When i think back, one of the funniest things is that we've had trans women in our group before, but that was years ago.
razal, i find what you say to have a grain of truth to it, i am not sure if it is fear, if it is solidarity or if it is something I just don't understand. whatever it is, i think it needs to be corrected
peace
hoops