Guantanamo suicides a "PR Ploy"

[david uk]

"A top US official has described the suicides of three detainees at the US base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, as a "good PR move to draw attention".
Colleen Graffy told the BBC the deaths were part of a strategy and "a tactic to further the jihadi cause", but taking their own lives was unnecessary." bbc news 11/06/2006

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5069230.stm

that quote has to be one of the most ridiculous of all time- an insult to one's intelligence. Does anyone really think that 3 men in separate cells, who have all been held largely in solitary confinement for 4 years without so much has being charged for anything, would take the time to work out a PR plan?

These men may be guilty of terrorist offenses... I have no idea... but until you charge people like that you have no defence for keeping them. To do so is a breach of basic human rights and tantamount to torture. at the end of the day exactly why they took their lives does not matter. They did.

Congratulations Mr Bush- if nothing else, you have created a new generation of martyrs....

[Dee]

Unnecessary? What other recourse does a person held without charge or trial have?

Yes Bush is doing a fine job. The guy must have the reverse Midas touch.

PS: "Ken Roth, head of Human Rights Watch in New York, told the BBC the men had probably been driven by despair.

"These people are despairing because they are being held lawlessly," he said.

'There's no end in sight. They're not being brought before any independent judges. They're not being charged and convicted for any crime.'"

[david uk]

whether these men are guilty or not, how is holding people in solitary confinement for 4 years with no charge setting any kind of example to the countries the US is supposed to be educating about democracy?

[DaveM]

I think we may just have seen the first deaths directly attributable to not loving Big Brother.

[Dee]

Yes well, Bush and his ilk can say whatever they like. It won't remove the blood from their hands in the eyes of the world.

I’m with David. If these men were alleged of a crime, they ought to at least be allowed a trial. That isn’t democracy, that’s Nazism! :mad:

[Randy & Betty in Pa]

Afternoon all..

As much as it distresses me I agree with Dee and David on this one... If in fact those people are incarerated with cause then give them a trial... But Bush's bandits have made far to many mistakes to be holding uncharged indeffinately for anything... If that was done by the so called terrorists Bush would be screaming that its a war crime.... and if he screamed that, I think that would be one of the first times I would be able to agree with him... As it is I think those people held need to be released or charged and tried... not shuffled around the world to secret CIA prisons or Cuba... I think the buck stops on the War Criminals desk at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave... How can the world believe that we are a Republic that promotes Democracy while our leadership openly violates the values that made this nation great....

We need a real leader.... All it would take is a constitutional ammendment... I mean Bush wants to make one of those to remove individuals rights....Why not write an ammendment to let Bill Clinton run again:)

Best to all

R. from Pa...

[Dee]

Suicides prompt new calls to close Guantanamo (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/11062006/6/n-usa-suicides-prompt-new-calls-close-guantanamo.html)
Sun Jun 11, 12:49 PM EST

By Jane Sutton

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The suicides of three Arab prisoners at Guantanamo ignited new calls on Sunday for the United States to shut down the detention camp and find a better way to deal with captured terrorist suspects.

Advocates for the prisoners blamed the Bush administration for the deaths, which they said would inflame the global Muslim community.

Two Saudis and a Yemeni hanged themselves with clothes and bedsheets in maximum security cells on Saturday -- the first captives to die at Guantanamo since the United States began sending suspected al Qaeda and Taliban captives there in 2002.

Saudi Arabia's Interior Ministry identified the two Saudis as Manei al-Otaibi and Yasser al-Zahrani but gave no further details. Pentagon documents show Zahrani was 21, meaning he was sent to Guantanamo as a teenager.

Saudi Arabia, a staunch U.S. ally, asked for the return of the bodies, and said it was stepping up efforts to repatriate more than 100 Saudis held at the prison on a U.S. naval base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

"Each Saudi has to be brought home where he can face up to charges he is accused of based on our laws and regulations," said an Interior Ministry spokesman.

Yes! At the very least that!

Guantanamo holds about 460 foreigners captured during the U.S.-led war to oust al Qaeda from Afghanistan after the September 11 attacks.

The Bush administration calls them dangerous men who would launch deadly attacks on America and its allies if released. But President George W. Bush said Friday he would like to empty Guantanamo and is working to repatriate many of the detainees.

Sen. Jack Reed, a Democrat from Rhode Island, said the United States must find another way to keep the Guantanamo prisoners off the streets.

"There are some ruthless and fanatical terrorists that are in our custody and we just can't turn them loose," Reed told CNN's Late Edition. But he said: "We should recognize that as long as Guantanamo exists, it is a source of international attention and concern."

Prisoners have for years staged coordinated suicide attempts that human rights advocates called evidence of despair and isolation. Before Saturday, 23 prisoners had tried to kill themselves in 41 suicide attempts at the camp....

[Bat]

I just can't help but wonder if torture played a hand here?

[Dee]

Came home today to find the following news:

Lawyers say some of the terror suspects are being tortured while in detention (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/12062006/2/national-lawyers-say-terror-suspects-tortured-detention.html)
Mon Jun 12, 12:23 PM EST

By Gregory Bonnell

BRAMPTON, Ont. (CP) - Lawyers representing the terror suspects arrested in the Toronto area earlier this month say some of the men are being tortured and beaten while in detention.

Rocco Galati told reporters Monday that the men are being kept in isolation in rooms that are lit 24 hours a day and are woken up every half hour.

Another lawyer said his client was beaten by a guard after he giggled because he felt ticklish while being searched.

David Kolinsky said the guard pinned his client to the ground, drilled his knuckle into the man's cheek and said, "is this funny?"

"Under the convention against torture and other cruel and unusual punishment the instances of mistreatment that defence counsel have cited as going on at the jail constitute torture," Galati said outside the court where some of 17 men accused in an alleged terror plot appeared.

Galati said the men have been denied access to their lawyers and have been allowed no time outdoors for five straight days.

He said the accused are given only five minutes to eat their meals or else the food is taken away.

The men are not allowed to speak to anyone, including the guards, and are being forced to keep their eyes on the floor at all times.

"When they are escorted or walked from point A to point B, they must walk at a 90-degree angle with their legs upright and their torso across at a 90-degree angle with handcuffs stretched out and be escorted by three armed tactical members of the security forces," he said.

Galati called the treatment of the men and youths "unprecedented" and said the suspects have been publicly declared guilty by the prime minister, the mayor of Toronto and some Muslim community leaders.

These and other actions associated with the case call into question whether the accused could now get fair treatment by the justice system, the lawyer said.

"Within mere days of the arrests, the prime minister of Canada and the mayor of Toronto publicly declared the guilt of the accused," Galati said outside the courthouse.

"Some leaders of the opposition, MPs and senators have also declared their guilt," he said.

"Self-proclaimed leaders of the Muslim community, in a desperate attempt to distance themselves from the accused have declared them guilty as well."

Galati represents Ahmad Mustafa Ghany, a 21-year-old recent health sciences graduate of McMaster University in Hamilton. Ghany is the son of a doctor who immigrated to Canada from Trinidad and Tobago more than 40 years ago.

The 17 suspects face a variety of charges including knowingly participating in or contributing to terrorist activity, providing or receiving training for terrorist purposes and providing or making available property for a terrorist activity.

Weapons and explosives charges include committing indictable offences, in this case planning to cause an explosion and importing firearms and ammunition, to benefit a terrorist group.

The maximum sentences for participating in terrorism, training and making property available are 10 years in prison.

The weapons and explosives offences would be crimes in any case, but proof that they were linked to a terrorist objective would raise the maximum sentence to life in prison.

Galati also pointed to the heavy military force surrounding court proceedings last week, including the presence of SWAT team members inside the courtroom, saying it all leads to the denial of a fair bail hearing.

"The military show of force was oppressive and . . . included three outside perimeters with a tactical team with automatic assault rifles, rooftop snipers, helicopters and dogs," he said.

"It also included inside the courtroom armed SWAT team members with automatic assault rifles."

Media from around the world were at the courthouse, as they were last week when the men made their first appearance, but their families had no comment.

Several male family members or supporters held hands to form a protective ring around the women as they made their way from the parking lot into the courthouse.

Among those in attendance was Karim Khadr, the son of Ahmed Said Khadr, an associate of Osama bin Laden who was killed in a fire fight with Pakistani forces in 2003.

*
I am so ashamed. I knew PM Harper was following Bush's lead, but I never dreamed he would sink this low!

[ponytail]

How utterly disgusting. And profoundly sad...you said a mouthful with that constitutional amendment idea, Randy. I'd give my eye teeth if Clinton could run again. With Bush's approval rating so far down the toilet, he'd have a good chance of winning. If only the Democrats could come up with a new candidate that strong. This nightmare has got to end.

[DaveM]

We are signatories to the Geneva Conventions, the Nuremberg Codes, and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, among others. Apparently, a law is of no more use than a government's willingness to abide by it.

You know what really scares me about this sort of thing? Our government is placing this nation in the same moral position as many other nations which we have invaded for damned good reasons (yes, I include Saddam Hussein's Iraq among them, though I think better planning should have been done in advance). Have we given other nations the moral authority to regard the United States as an "outlaw nation"?

As an American, this is a question I never imagined I would have to ask myself or another. And it scares me.

[david uk]

You know what really scares me about this sort of thing? Our government is placing this nation in the same moral position as many other nations which we have invaded for damned good reasons (yes, I include Saddam Hussein's Iraq among them, though I think better planning should have been done in advance). Have we given other nations the moral authority to regard the United States as an "outlaw nation"?

As an American, this is a question I never imagined I would have to ask myself or another. And it scares me.

As a British citizen I feel the same way Dave, even though Tony Blair is trying to say he is opposed to the continuing operation of Guantanamo.

Human rights are human rights... they belong ro everyone

[snakegrl]

Sorry y'all, don't know how to do a partial quote thingy.
DaveM said:" a law is of no more use than a government's willingness to abide by it."
That's nothing new to the Native people's of North America, or anywhere else for that matter.
DaveM, well said by the way.
And that statement sums it all up for me.
So, I guess our job, peoples job, is to see that they do abide, never expect a fair game because buisness is after all buisness, and to wake the hell up.

[DaveM]

I feel for our First Nations people, too. More than one calls me "brother" and I respect that more than most can perhaps imagine.

Some time ago I was asked to join in a pipe ceremony for an Ojibwe friend whose son had died. It was a time for mourning, but I cannot think of any occasion when I have felt more honored.

We own our own lives. A government that would respect that would be wonderful. But I wonder if we will ever see one.