Conflict in Israel

[coffeegyrl]

Could someone help enlighten this clueless Rudie? I don't understand what's happening in Israel and what the heck this whole thing is all about. I know it's been going on for hundreds of years, but I missed that chapter in the history book. (If it was ever in there to begin with.) Of course it doesn't help that I went to catholic schools...

[Mimi]

Maybe this interview from a German news magazine (similar to Newsweek) may help a little bit to clear up what is going on:

01/02/2009 01:44 PMINTERVIEW WITH ISRAELI AUTHOR MEIR SHALEV
'Even the Left Was in Favor of Striking Hamas'
An operation against Hamas was necessary -- but a war aimed at eliminating the Palestinian radical group is irresponsible, says Israeli author Meir Shalev in an interview with SPIEGEL ONLINE. Israel, he says, needs to find a political solution through negotiations.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Israel's war against Hamas continues to drag on. When will it end?

Shalev: If it had been up to me, it would have been over after half a day. I am certainly of the opinion that it was necessary to warn and to punish Hamas. There have simply been too many rockets fired into Israel over the years. Jerusalem should have reacted much earlier and should have had a better-defined goal. Just as in the Lebananon war in 2006, there doesn't seem to be a good plan for how to end the offensive. Now it looks like the idea is to eliminate Hamas and to destroy every last weapons depot in the Gaza Strip. The war has developed a momentum of its own. That is wrong.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: How do you think the operation should be brought to an end?

Shalev: In the end a political solution has to be found, that much is clear. Israel has to speak with Hamas, Hamas has to speak with us, and then the two sides will have to agree on a realistic way forward. I certainly don't consider Hamas to be friendly people, but Israel's attitude is absurd. We behave as though it were our hobby to find new groups with whom we refuse to speak -- only to do so later. Twenty years ago, the PLO was the archenemy; today, with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas as its leader, the group is our best friend. In five years' time, we will also be speaking with Hamas -- but only if we have by then found ourselves a new enemy that we can refuse to talk to. Perhaps (militant Palestinian group) Islamic Jihad?

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Israel has not allowed journalists from the international press into the Gaza Strip. Why not?

Shalev: Israel doesn't want the foreign media to transmit images of the war into the living rooms of the world. The only people who are currently delivering news from Gaza are local journalists, which makes it easy for Israel to claim that their reports are inaccurate. That might even be true. Journalists who are themselves directly affected by the war presumably paint a one-sided picture of the situation. That is precisely the reason why the international press must be allowed into Gaza -- so that the world learns what is really going on.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Is the press lock-out a way of censoring the coverage?

Shalev: It is certainly a mistake. Those who think that they can censor the media in the era of cell phones and the Internet are gravely mistaken. Stories will always find their way out.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Why has the Israeli peace movement been so quiet?

Shalev: Even the Israeli left -- which I consider myself to be a part of -- was in favor of striking a blow against Hamas. We may not like how the war is now being conducted, but at the beginning there was very broad support among Israelis for the operation. After Israel pulled out of the Gaza Strip in 2005, the left was deeply disappointed. We had fulfilled our part of the agreement, but the rockets kept on coming.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Medicine, food, consumer goods, raw materials: Everything that the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip need has to be brought in over the border with Israel. In recent months, Israel has only allowed a bare minimum of the essentials into Gaza. That was a violation of the cease-fire agreement and, according to Hamas, the reason they decided to allow the cease-fire to lapse. Why did Israel give Hamas such an opening?

Shalev: Israel wants to rid itself of the Gaza Strip, also from an economic standpoint. On the one hand, the area is home to an enemy of Israel's. On the other, Israel has to feed that enemy. It is a situation that is not sustainable. It would be preferable were Egypt to open its border to the Gaza Strip, then Israel would no longer be responsible for it. But Egypt has no interest in opening its doors to Hamas. Cairo already has enough problems with Islamist extremists. They don't want to welcome in radical Palestinians as well.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Each new attempt to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict seems destined to fail. What has to change before real progress can be made?

Shalev: Radical Palestinians still say that the only solution would be for all Jews to pack their bags and return to where their grandparents came from. When there are no more Jews left in the Middle East, then the problem is solved, according to their logic. As long as they continue to think that way, there will be no peace. We are here and we are going to stay. Only after that fact is generally accepted can progress be made. Then there will hopefully be two states for two nations. That is the only sensible solution.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Elections are set to be held in Israel in February. Every decision made by Israel's political leadership during this conflict is being interpreted with that fact in mind. How large a role does the campaign play in the conduct of the war?

Shalev: The elections play a role, even if the operation was long overdue. I have the impression that Defense Minister Ehud Barak and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert are taking Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni for a ride. "Let the boys take charge, war isn't for girls" -- that's the game they are playing in a bid to push her aside.

Interview conducted by Ulrike Putz.



URL:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,599142,00.html

[Oak Kitten]

Coffegyrl,

The question you ask is impossible to answer succintly. This is an exceedingly condensed overview of the conflict that omits much more than it covers, but hopefully may give you some sense of context:

The contested territory occupied by the Israelis and the Arabs was formerly a British Protectorate called Palestine. After World War I, the British supported the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in the territory, which was opposed by many of the Arabs living there. As Jewish migration increased during the interwar era, and especially after Hitler came to power in Germany, tensions between the two populations escalated, with periodic eruptions of violence. A UN commission had designated certain parts of the territory for each population in a study of the issue. The British proposal for a two-state solution, creating separate Israeli and Palestinian states was rejected. In 1948 the Jewish people declared independence and established the State of Israel in the territory designated for them in the UN Commission study. The new state was immediately attacked by the Arab states of Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Israel rapidly defeated these states in the 1948 war, which has been a point of major shame for the Arabs. Another war fought in 1973 yielded the same results. Essentially, the region has been in a state of perpetual crisis for the last 60 years. Egypt eventually made peace with Israel and recognized its right to exist. Jimmy Carter got the Nobel Prize for negotiating the agreement, and Egyptian President Anwar Sadat got assassinated by Islamist radicals who considered his actions a betrayal.

The state of Israel is positioned between two territorial entities in which most of the Arab population referred to as Palestinians reside. The Gaza Strip is to the west along the coast of the Mediterranean, and the West Bank is to the east. Israel effectively controls access to the two Arab territories by land, sea and air. The Israelis often restrict trade and travel to and from Gaza and the West Bank is response to security concerns, which further exacerbates tensions. There was a long history of conflict between Jewish settlers who were establishing illegal settlements in Gaza with the local Arabs. In 2005, Israel agreed to remove the settlers from Gaza, as well as Israeli soldiers, in a gesture that would hopefully lead to progress in eventually concluding a meaningful and lasting peace. However, after the Israelis left Gaza, there was a power struggle between Fatah – the political party represented by Yassir Arafat that substantially moderated its views towards Israel after Arafat’s death, and HAMAS, the Islamic Resistance Movement which receives substantial support (financial and military, as in weapons) from Iran. HAMAS took control of Gaza, but the international community refused to accept the HAMAS-led government because it did not recognize Israel, would not renounce violence, and refused to honor previous peace agreements between Israel and the Palestinian Authority that had been constituted under the post-Arafat Fatah Party.

Hamas has been launching rocket and mortar attacks against Israel from Gaza, and has escalated the attacks in recent weeks. This finally provoked the Israelis into a military response, which began with air strikes, and has now escalated to the insertion of ground troops into Gaza. Civilians on both sides are caught in the middle, creating a humanitarian crisis. I think the Israelis will continue their offensive until they are satisfied that they have damaged HAMAS significantly enough to severely curtail its ability to attack Israel.

The problem is that even though there are Arab states that would be more than happy to see HAMAS wiped out because it is supported by Iran (Sunni Arab Egypt and Saudi Arabia want to counterbalance the growing influence of Persian Shiite Iran), HAMAS has great support among the common people, also referred to as the Arab Street. Because HAMAS hides amongst the civilian population to launch its attacks, the Palestinian civilians bear the brunt of the Israeli response, which leads to tremendous pressure on Israel to stop its counter attacks.

There, aren't you glad you asked?

Oak

[coffeegyrl]

Thank you Oak. Your explanation is helping me understand a bit of what's happening.

[DaveM]

All politics and ideology aside, it seems as if this current crisis, like many similar in the region, appears to consist of two side shooting at each other in the belief that if they continue long enough, the other will stop. If history continues to hold true, the result will be prolonged, bloody, and in the end, accomplish nothing. Nor will either side learn from it.

It's more or less the immovable object facing down the irresistable force, only with both throwing high explosives at the other in the hope of creating at least a perceived weakness.

[Mimi]

Great job, Randy! I was thinking of summing it all up last night as well but was too tired after a day filled with corrections.

Mimi

[david uk]

All politics and ideology aside, it seems as if this current crises, like many similar in the region, appears to consist of two side shooting at each other in the belief that if they continue long enough, the other will stop. If history continues to hold true, the result will be prolonged, bloody, and in the end, accomplish nothing. Nor will either side learn from it.




very true I fear, Dave.

[Bat]

This warfare business has been going on over there since before the Bible was written. I don't think they'll ever learn.
I know that if someone were hiding behind a fence lobbing mortar and rocket rounds at me, I would not think of turning the other cheek...and if those doing the lobbing are of the people, and choose to put their lobbers and lobbees amongst the throngs to hide, and are supported by those throngs, then they only get what they are asking for.
I don't think we should support either side in this, nor should we be bleeding hearts over the casualties...the lobbers have asked for it, and now that they're getting it, the whiners and hand-wringers come out of the woodwork.
War is war, bullies are bullies. If they choose to fight, if they choose to bully, let them take the consequences. Sorry, if I sound like a heard-hearted Hannah, but that's the way I feel. If the Lobbers cared anything about their relatives, families and children, they should have thought about it sooner.
If the people want to support people like Hamas, it's their prerogative.
Sooner or later the people might rise up against their ignorance, find a statesman who will deliver their people peacefully...or not. It hasn't happened in 2000 years, so don't hold your breath.

[Sara]

From the AJC:



Take Hamas at its Word
By David A. Harris

There’s the story of the mother determined that her five-year-old child should one day be headed for a top college. She decided to pump him with new vocabulary words at every opportunity. When little Charlie came home from school one day, his mother promptly asked, “Charlie, what’s the difference between ignorance and indifference?” Totally uninterested, he shrugged his shoulders and muttered, “I don’t know and I don’t care.”

At times, that’s the sense I get about today’s response to Hamas.It’s as if there is an ignorance—perhaps a willful ignorance, perhaps just intellectual laziness—about what Hamas, which rules Gaza, really means. No, it is not just another political party in some far-off place, but something far more ominous.

Hamas was created in 1988. Its stated goal is the destruction of Israel and its replacement by an Islamic state. Let its covenant speak for itself: “Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep.” Or another telling excerpt: “The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews [and kill them]; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: ‘O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!’”

Twenty years later, the covenant remains unchanged. Hamas, classified as a terrorist group by the U.S., European Union, Canada, and Japan, remains true to its mission. As Hamas has declared in repeated public statements, “Palestine is Arab Islamic land from the river to the sea, including Jerusalem. There is no room in it for the Jews.”

To view Hamas as a group fighting for nothing more than Israel to return to the 1967 lines—or as a credible negotiating partner—stretches credulity to the breaking point. Remember that when Hamas calls for an end to the “occupation,” it sees all of Israel as occupied, not just territories acquired in the 1967 war of self-defense.

And then there’s the indifference, as if the Israel-Hamas conflict was nothing more than, say, a Middle Eastern version of the Hatfield-McCoy dispute. You know, the notion that the parties have always been fighting, will always be fighting, and no one really understands (or cares) what they are fighting about.The conflict is not about inertia, much less symmetry, equal responsibility, or that antiseptic “cycle of violence.”

Rather, it is a conflict with regional and global implications. Every nation with a stake in democracy, pluralism, and peace can ill afford to see Hamas achieve legitimacy, much less success.

The worldview of Hamas extends far beyond Israel and the Jews. By its own words, it seeks global Islamic domination, the restoration of the transnational Caliphate, rejection of Western values, and the repudiation of basic human rights. It aspires to the “utter destruction” of America. Its closest allies are Iran, Syria and Hezbollah.

Ask journalists about Hamas’ commitment to press freedom since it seized power. Ask the tiny Christian community in Gaza what life is like under radical Islamic rule. Ask women how much freedom they have, other than to produce children for the “cause,” as the Hamas Covenant stipulates. Ask gays what rights they have. Ask supporters of Fatah, who were pummeled and tortured in the violent Hamas seizure of power in 2007, how much latitude they have.

Ignorance and indifference may be tempting escape valves, but they don’t begin to solve the problem.Israel today faces an entirely unique situation. It is bordered by a rogue entity led by a group openly calling for its destruction, acquiring ever more advanced weaponry, cavalierly using civilians, including children, as human shields, and celebrating death and destruction in Israel.Israel is a democratic nation that has repeatedly declared its commitment to a two-state settlement with the Palestinians, has a vested interest in a stable and prosperous Gaza, and goes to unprecedented lengths to avoid civilian deaths.

When has another nation at war contacted civilians on the other side in advance to warn them of impending strikes? When has another nation at war exported humanitarian supplies across its border to assist those on the other side? When has another nation at war continued to admit those on the other side in need of medical care to its hospitals? Israel is doing all three.

These actions speak to Israel’s entrenched values as a democratic society. They speak to its desire to differentiate between Hamas, the sworn enemy, and the people of Gaza. And they remind us that the outcome of this conflict will have profound repercussions for the region and the world.

David A.Harris is executive director of American Jewish Committee.

[Dee]

He's the universal soldier and he
really is to blame
His orders come from far away no more
They come from him, and you, and me
and brothers can't you see
this is not the way we put an end to war

(Buffy Sainte-Marie)

War is hell. That's all I'm saying about it.

[angelgirl]

Annie speaks out about Gaza carnage.


www.annielennox.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yyzbb0POqfY



Sending rudievibes for PEACE.

Angelgirl

[Bat]

Here are a couple worthwhile articles from Huffington Press anent the Israel/Hamas conflict...well worth reading both of them:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marty-kaplan/eyeless-in-gaza_b_155204.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mitchell-bard/hamas-is-responsible-for_b_155261.html

[david uk]

from the BBC:

"Casualties have been pouring into over-stretched hospitals in the Gaza Strip as Israel presses on with its offensive against Palestinian militant groups.

Palestinian medical officials said earlier that 90 people, including many civilians and 26 children, had died since Israel's ground assault began.

Israel says it is targeting militants continuing to fire rockets into Israel.

Intense diplomatic efforts are under way to resolve the crisis, but Israel rejected calls for an immediate truce.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who is on a mission to the region, appealed for a halt to the violence to allow humanitarian aid through.

'Shattered bodies'

There were reports of fierce fighting in northern Gaza on Monday as news began to emerge of the scale of the problems facing medical staff in the territory. "

what is needed is a ceasefire and an old fashioned thing called dialogue.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7812286.stm

terribly sad to see innocent people dying on both sides.

violence, whoever perpetrates it, solves nothing.

[hoops]

the children don't gete to choose. no one asks them if they are ready to put their lives on the line for an antiquated belief system. and where should the poor go if they do not wish to fight, they do not believe in this hate? and what about the elderly and the disabled, where is their vote in this? where do they get to go hide? who gives them a choice? i can see, even tho i don't agree with war of any kind, i can still understand, fighting for ones beliefs and ones family, but what about those who can't fight and would choose not to if they had a choice? what about the least of our brothers and sisters?
peace
hoops