In favour of animal testing

[dutchcloggie]

Dee's thread about Inuit and seal hunting made me think (again) about animal rights protestors in Britain at the moment. Not wanting to hijack his thread, I started a new one.

Be warned: this is a rant in favour of animal testing. Thankfully Tony Blair has recently spoken out in upport of Universities and laboratories who consider animal testing vital for medical research.

I am totally against animal testing for cosmetics etc as cosmetics serve no need and are purely for fun. To me, I equate that with hunting for fun.

However, when it comes to animals being used to test medication, I feel it is perfectly fine to do so, providing the animals get treated as well as possible. And with that, I mean that they get food, clean cages and not kicked around for some creepy pleasure.

Yes, animal tests are painful for the animals. And no, they do not predict 100% accurately what effect medication has on humans, but without animal testing, there would not be any medical advances, no new cures for diseases. Because it is impossible to test on humans as they would all die.

Yes, I understand that I am saying that it is OK for animals to die for my benefit.
Yes, I have seen pictures of cute monkeys with their skull chopped off so we can see inside its brain.
Yes, I have seen pictures of animals in pain.
So there is no need for animal protesters to be condescending and patronising by saying things like "If you only knew what really happens…."

But even though that makes me feel sad for the animals involved, I have no other alternative than to accept this as part of medical progress. All I want is for the labs to treat the animals involved as well as they can, considering the circumstances. And to me that means not hurting the animals for fun.

I am totally disgusted with animal rights protesters in England recently who have dug up the body of the grandmother of a man who breeds guinea pigs for medical research. They dug the woman up and hid her remains for a year. The man eventually closed his farm because the entire town was targeted. The idea behind it was that anyone who did any business with the farm was fair game. So even the milkman got bricks through his window. The man supplying the farm with fuel had his house painted red and people in front of his house hurling abuse at him every day.

In Oxford, the University is building a new research laboratory. This lab has been on hold for about 18 months after protesters had threatened the workers and the contractor walked off site. Now the construction workers have to wear face-covering masks and be driving into the building in a bullet-proof van. Their names and employment details are a closely guarded secret out of fear of protestors targeting them privately.

Recently, they have sent letters to all small shareholders of GlaxoSmithKline, threatening to publish their names on a website if they did not sell their shares soon.


How many of those protestors would refuse medication if they got ill? Or if one of their family/friends got ill? Once of the most vocal protestors got a brain tumour and she said that it was better for the animals if she stayed alive because then she could help the fight against animal testing. So she felt it was OK to accept medication that had been tested on animals.

Someone please explain why this is all accepted? Why do people think it is OK to target innocent people who are simply making a living? They don’t just target the actual labs or companies. No, the use violence against anyone who is in any way, shape or form, no matter how remote, connected.

It is disgusting and it almost makes me wish they get a really nasty disease that can only be treated with animal-tested medication which we can then refuse them.

[Amy in Vermont]

I agree with you 100%.

Yes, I am against cruelty, but ultimately, there has to be some sacrifice for progress.

These are probably the same people who are against stem cell research, which could help reduce the use of animals for testing!

A

[aabram]

Tell that to the animals then

[Des]

Great thread Cloggie, and something very close to my heart too.

The medical industry is an industry built on confusion that has always been. It started as a means to help others via balancing chemical intake in order to eliminate human aliments. Any human aliment that is self induced (other than an ailment which is conceived by another humans release - Such as flu, HIV etc) has the ability to be understood on a very basic level and eradicated thereafter.

Any illness starts in the mind and performs the necessary outlet in the body, to inform us on where we are ‘off track’ with ourselves. It’s an automatic trigger which kicks in to let us know that we aren’t quite at ‘one’ as we should be. Any medication of any sort, will eventually suppress that person into an isolated state of someone they no longer recognise as themselves. Alas, the whole time it’s seen to be a good thing, people will always be dragged along with the belief of it all. Even if a medicine appears to work, it usually targets another area of concern within the body. Therefore we never question.

Scientist now researching diabetes and high blood pressure, are slowly concluding it not to be the result of high sugar / salt intake, but more to do with the chemicals in the food we eat that are triggering this ailment within us.

Everyone has cancer within them, it’s whether or not they choose to activate this illness or not, due to the way they control their anger/resentment/trauma etc etc.

I come from a very alternative Chinese diagnosis background. For example - I haven’t taken a headache tablet since I was a child. I haven’t had a headache since I was a child, as nothing causes me to warrant having headaches. If I was taken ill through my own self emotion (which let’s say was liver cancer related to anger), I would not want any conventional medicine, as I don’t want a chemical preventative – I want a natural cure and to know the reasons why I am bringing this illness upon myself.

The medical profession assumes it is doing the right thing, as it does not know any different. In turn the whole world thinks the same. Thus, a very vicious circle of ignorance and lack of belief in our own minds and the way in which our body’s own healing mechanism works.

As for animal cruelty protestors being taken ill and taking medicine tested on animals, I think we only hear about the pinpointed cases in the media - where a very small minority are targeted. Not all protestors are peaceful ones and some are often misguided in their research.

I see progress as the human understanding self and not by a chemical tablet being consumed only to give way to the side effects of something else.

Prevention in not a cure and it never will be. We are the cure!

[gisli]

Des I sometimes need help to understand as english is not my first language. Are you saying that we can cure our self through for example by thinking positively and eating organic grown food etc. kind of saying it´s all in the mind. or am I misunderstanding.

[Des]

Des I sometimes need help to understand as english is not my first language. Are you saying that we can cure our self through for example by thinking positively and eating organic grown food etc. kind of saying it´s all in the mind. or am I misunderstanding.

Yes gisli, that's exactly what I'm saying and your English is far better than most English people I know:)

I can't speak for everyone, but this has always worked for me and others I know who live in the same manner. Eat organically, think positively and always be in control of your mind and emotions. It all sounds rather spiritual, but you can give it whatever label you want to. To me its just common sense and being kind to yourself.

[gisli]

Then I can say I agree, I have a simular vision. Use God Pharmacy.

[dutchcloggie]

Des, I accept that this is your opinion and I am very impressed that you feel able to cure yourself in that way and prevent getting ill.

Hoowever, I completely resent your suggestion that everyone has some kind of control over gettting cancer, based on how they deal with fear. Little kids get cancer? Is it theiir own fault?

Either way, I would say that is almost a totally separate thread than about animal testing for medication as you are claiming you don't even need any medication, animal tested or not.

But what iif you do get ill and you need treatment? If you get cancer for example (God forbid!!!). Would you use medication that was tested on animals? Or would you refuse it, maintaining that you can heal yourself?

Just curious.

[Dee]

Dee's thread about Inuit and seal hunting made me think (again) about animal rights protestors in Britain at the moment. Not wanting to hijack his thread, I started a new one.

I appreciate your courtesy, Dutchcloggie. Yes that it the proper proceedure, as well as something Janis requested we do here.

[Des]

Cloggie, I agree this is probably a totally separate thread to that of animal testing. I have a bad habit of going off at a tangent. However, I felt it went hand in hand with the topic.

If you resent my points, I don’t have a problem with that. I never asked anyone to agree with me and that’s what makes for a good thread.

It is not so much a suggestion, but merely a belief that is shared by many in how the bodily system works in relation to the mind that has been around for thousands of years, long before conventional medicine and it’s billion dollar industries.

As with anything alternative that isn’t mainstream knowledge, it comes as a shock to those who hear it.

If I was taken ill, I carry a card which informs whoever not to give me medication or donation of any organ or even blood. This is my choice and I wouldn’t for one minute expect anyone to share that same choice as me. Just as I would not make that same choice for another. And no, I’m not a Jehovah.

[Amy in Vermont]

Everyone has cancer within them, it’s whether or not they choose to activate this illness or not, due to the way they control their anger/resentment/trauma etc etc.




However, I completely resent your suggestion that everyone has some kind of control over gettting cancer, based on how they deal with fear. Little kids get cancer? Is it theiir own fault?


I'm with Dutch Cloggie here. As a cancer survivor, I am totally offended by your statement, Des. I am a happy, strong, healthy, pretty well balanced individual who cares alot about the people in my life. I take as little medication as I possibly can, and I am very tuned into my body and what it is telling me.

But I had cancer. Uterine cancer. It was caught very early and after surgery, no other treament needed. I was lucky. Its been 2 years, and all is well. Try as I might, I can't think of anything I did that would have "caused" the cancer within me, as you put it, to be "activated".

Yes, I do think some people are somehow predisposed to certain illnesses, and that environmental and life style factors may trigger that predisposition to manifest itself.

And I do think our medical establishment is sometimes totally on the wrong track, but I also know that had I not sought medical attention as quickly as I did, my life would be very different right now, if not over completely.

You are entitled to your opinion, but be careful when you speak in absolutes.

[gisli]

What is cancer?
Fact: It seems like that it is in someway family related. Take twins for exsample, if one gets cancer, it is often that the other gets it to.
A friend went every year to a cancer check up because his father, brother and sister all got cancer, they found cancer in him this winter and he is allright now. It passes from one to another, so in a way you could say that cancer is within you and can explain why young children get cancer.

What activates cancer cells to divide is a another think, it can be a lot of things, some mention stress, having worry´s, smoking, living near electric or magnetic field and a whole lot more we don´t know about.
In this, things are not just black or white, not all treatment, unfortunatly, from doctors cure cancer.
I can tell of cases that doctors have said to the patient that there is nothing more they can do. Many of these patients have gone to Herbdoctors and they have given them a special herbmixture to take and given them advice on another diet (food) and do meditation. Some patients (not all) that do this have recovered in full, no one knows how to explain it, but one could say that the body and mind and a different lifestyle had something to do with it.
In the old days around 1600, long before car, man made pollution, cigarettes, etc people died of cancer....my question is, what is cancer?

[dutchcloggie]

If you resent my points, I don’t have a problem with that. I never asked anyone to agree with me and that’s what makes for a good thread.

It is not so much a suggestion, but merely a belief that is shared by many in how the bodily system works in relation to the mind that has been around for thousands of years, long before conventional medicine and it’s billion dollar industries.

I don’t disagree with the fact that medicine should take more notice of the link between body and mind. It is after all a proven fact that people who ‘fight’ and remain positive whilst having some kind of illness tend to heal faster (if they heal, that is) etc. I too don’t like the fact that doctors prescribe medication for loads of things right away without looking at links with other things. My mother’s arthritis was rampant when she and my dad were having severe marital problems. Now that they are happy again, it has calmed down again and has gone back to its ‘normal’ state of a slowly progressing condition, rather than excruciating attacks of pain on a frequent basis.

My RSI flares up when I am stressed and lays low when I am relaxed.

So I am not disputing your points, nor do I resent them as such. I simply resent your suggestion hat people have some kind of mental control over their illness. Yes, there are things people can do to help their healing process. And then there are things people can do physically to help control their illnesses (smoking, drinking, work place etc.)



As with anything alternative that isn’t mainstream knowledge, it comes as a shock to those who hear it.

It doesn’t. I know that people think the way you do and you are welcome to do so. That is your right. I don’t think you are stupid or ignorant for thinking what you think. In fact, most of the time it is those who believe in alternative medicine who accuse those who prefer conventional medicine of being stupid and ignorant.



If I was taken ill, I carry a card which informs whoever not to give me medication or donation of any organ or even blood. This is my choice and I wouldn’t for one minute expect anyone to share that same choice as me. Just as I would not make that same choice for another. And no, I’m not a Jehovah.

Now that I respect. Because all too often people say one thing and then when it comes to life and death, they chicken out and go for the safe option. Although I do not understand it, I respect your choices and I respect even more the fact that you are prepared to stick to them.

I reckon many of those animal protestors would go for the life-saving treatment when it came down to the wire. And that I do not respect. Or the attitude that those who believe in animal testing are somehow misguided, ignorant and stupid and that only those who oppose animal testing know the whole truth.

I take it from your beliefs then that you oppose animal testing as you don’t think medicines are needed in the first place. That makes sense to me as it fits into your belief system. But the animal protestors are not protesting against conventional medicine. They are protesting against the use of animals to test the medication. They think they should be tested on humans instead.

And to get their point across, they have recently burnt down the boathouse of Oxford University. And thrown bricks at the house of an architect who, in the distant past, did SOME kind of business with the University. And they use their megaphone outside the University when students are sitting exams and studying. And they spread lies about companies.

And sometimes, when they are wrongly accusing a company, they bring an entire company down by simply threatening them and writing letters to those who do business with them. They are a disgrace and they are getting too much attention.

In a documentary the other day, a woman of about 55 said that if she was to get a terminal disease, she would go to an animal lab, drive her car into the building and detonate bombs and kill as many people as possible.

You may remember the assassination of Pim Fortuyn, a Dutch politician, in 2002. He was assassinated by an animal rights protestor who is also suspected of murdering a government agricultural inspector years before.

And we are worrying only about Islamic terrorism whilst more blatant things are going on right under our noses. In public.

[Chet]

Everyone has cancer within them, it’s whether or not they choose to activate this illness or not, due to the way they control their anger/resentment/trauma etc etc.

I come from a very alternative Chinese diagnosis background. For example - I haven’t taken a headache tablet since I was a child. I haven’t had a headache since I was a child, as nothing causes me to warrant having headaches. If I was taken ill through my own self emotion (which let’s say was liver cancer related to anger), I would not want any conventional medicine, as I don’t want a chemical preventative – I want a natural cure and to know the reasons why I am bringing this illness upon myself.
Des, can you explain to me how a young girl of 17 (my niece) can be diagnosed with leukemia which took her life almost 4 years later? Or how young children get cancer in general? Do they feel such anger/resentment/trauma at such a young age that it releases the cancer in them?

Hey, I come from a Chinese diagnosis background, too - my family has been in the Chinese herbal business since my grandfather started it more than 70 years ago, and I still have family members running Chinese herbal shops in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. But I don't completely dismiss Western medicine. In fact, I was diagnosed with lupus 12 years ago and from day 1 have consulted a Western medical practitioner and I use Western medicine to keep the condition under control.

Dutchcloggie - sorry for taking this thread a little off-course.

[dutchcloggie]

I always think the best treatment combines conventional medicine with alternative one. The best alternative therapists usually are the ones who advise people to visit their 'conventional' doctor on a regular basis as well.

[Gigglepottomus]

I am for animals being used to test medication. I think it is unfortunate but necessary. I would however like to caution you all about companies who hide under the veil of legitimate medical testing. I don't think it is necessary to pour bleach in a rabbits eyes to let me know that I should not get bleach in my eyes. Give me a break it's common sense for Christ sake.

[dutchcloggie]

I am for animals being used to test medication. I think it is unfortunate but necessary. I would however like to caution you all about companies who hide under the veil of legitimate medical testing. I don't think it is necessary to pour bleach in a rabbits eyes to let me know that I should not get bleach in my eyes. Give me a break it's common sense for Christ sake.


Oh I agree with you completely on that one. That is what I mean by gratuitous torture. Trying to find a bleach that does not hurt your eyes is NOT medical research as far as I am concerned. Just don't get it into your eyes. SImple as that. And don't swallow it etc.......

[aabram]

I'm sorry to hear you guys talking like this. With the needless testing on animals, who are we to exploit ANY animal in such a way? Take for example the blunder of those six people left seriously ill in hospital in March. Does this actually PROVE anything to you?? It proves to me that we were right all along when we said that testing on animals is NOT the way forward, and that inaccuracies will result. What an inaccuracy that was!! Our genetic makeup is not the same as rats, mice, dogs, cats etc, and yet we still persist in practising these barbaric acts of cruelty .....probably learned from WWII, but there you have it. Battery Farming is no better.

[dutchcloggie]

I'm sorry to hear you guys talking like this. With the needless testing on animals, who are we to exploit ANY animal in such a way? Take for example the blunder of those six people left seriously ill in hospital in March. Does this actually PROVE anything to you?? It proves to me that we were right all along when we said that testing on animals is NOT the way forward, and that inaccuracies will result. What an inaccuracy that was!! Our genetic makeup is not the same as rats, mice, dogs, cats etc, and yet we still persist in practising these barbaric acts of cruelty .....probably learned from WWII, but there you have it. Battery Farming is no better.

Aabram, what is the alternative?

Animal testing does not provide 100% of the answer, hence tests on humans need to be done. In the case of the 6 poor people, it simply proved that the medication was very unsafe to be used on humans. Animal tests did not show any side effects (That means to me they did not suffer....).
To me, that whole episode only proves the use of animal testing. People would die in their thousands if medication wasn't first tested on animals.

Most medication never makes it past the animal testing stage because the results are not good. Imagine if all those medicines were to be tested on humans right away instead of being tested on animals first.

Perhaps in this instance, animals are too different to yield a useful result but there are PLENTY of medicines that can be tested on animals because they respond the same way humans do.

Although I respect that people are against animal testing and I certainly support research into alternative methods, I never really hear an alternative presented that would enable us to stop animal testing right now.

Do you have any suggestions? What could we test medication on instead of animals? Humans? You tihnk anyone would volunteer? It would be the end of medical research and medical advances.

Finally, humans are stupid and they are killing the planet. They will eventually die out from their own stupidity. This has happened through the ages: One stronger species arises and then it dies out for some reason (overreaching??). The fact of the matter is that humans are the dominant animal on this planet. In nature, the dominant species has always sought to use and subdue the 'lesser' species.

Animals are not humans. It woudl be ridiculous to treat animals like humans because they are, as you point out, simply not the same. Hence humans get to decide what they do with animals. And one of the things humans have decided to do with animals, is animal testing. It is a simple matter of survival of the fittest. The difference is that humans have a councious that tells them to at least treat the animals as decent as possible whilst using them for tests. I can assure you, if gorrillas are to rule the earth some day, they will not have such consideration for humans.

[Des]

I wonder how humans would feel if the day were to come where a higher intelligence to that of the human, were to perform tests on us?

Also, another thing to think about is that any form of animal medication for our beloved dogs, cats & horses etc is not tested on mice or monkeys. It’s actually tested on those animals we adore so much. The ones we love so much and would never harm.

Also, I didn’t make myself that clear with the cancer thing and really should have gone into more detail. I should have mentioned that it was also a combination of toxins in the atmosphere and chemicals in food, coupled with a negative mind. So I apologise to all who may have resented my comments. And as cloggie mentioned, it really had nothing to do with this topic of thread.

Peace:)

[aabram]

Also, another thing to think about is that any form of animal medication for our beloved dogs, cats & horses etc is not tested on mice or monkeys. It’s actually tested on those animals we adore so much. The ones we love so much and would never harm.

Also, I didn’t make myself that clear with the cancer thing and really should have gone into more detail. I should have mentioned that it was also a combination of toxins in the atmosphere and chemicals in food, coupled with a negative mind.
Peace:)

And so we go Holistic....

[dutchcloggie]

I wonder how humans would feel if the day were to come where a higher intelligence to that of the human, were to perform tests on us?

Also, another thing to think about is that any form of animal medication for our beloved dogs, cats & horses etc is not tested on mice or monkeys. It’s actually tested on those animals we adore so much. The ones we love so much and would never harm.


I would be upset about having tests performed on me. The difference between us and animals is that was have the menal capacity to make moral judgements. Animals don't. Hence humans are superior at the moment. You simply CAN NOT equate animals with humans. You can not treat them the same either. Does your dog sleep in your bed? Do you breast feed puppies if you happen to be breast feeding your own baby? Nope. Because they are not the same and are not treated the same.

That doesn't mean I do not like animals, which brings me to your second point. Of course I realise dogs, cat & horses are used. I am not saying this to you personally but why it is that peopel against animal testing always seem to assume those in favour don't know what they are talking about?

I would never use my own rabbit for testing (unless I saw no ither choice). That is because I have a personal relationship with it. Like people don't kill people they know (unless they feel, for some reason or another that they have no choice) and yet, soldiers kill other soldiers and see it as an accepted sacrifice. As long as they don't know the other soldier personally.

I am not stupid. I know they use fluffy bunnies, cute monkeys, lovely dog, purring cats and whatever other nice furry, loving, fluffy animal. And yes I know there is pain involved. Lots of it. And I am sorry about that.

But I still think it is acceptable as long as the animals are not gratuitously tortured for the fun of it. Like with fox hunting or whale hunting for fun.

So please, don't tell me that I am perhaps not quite aware of what happens in animal laboratories.

:peace:

[Des]

Cloggie, you make some extremely valid points.

I think the trouble with us humans (me included), is that we all assume we are superior to animals. All the facts are there to prove it and it seems that anything else would sound nonsense. However, as mankind as a whole has never had the opportunity to live in harmony with everything that exists on the Earth, then therefore everything other than the logical seems very way out there. Then again, it wasn’t that long ago when people’s beliefs were shot to pieces when they were told the world was not flat.

All I can say is that anything is possible and anything has room for change in the right direction. I for one do not take part in animal rights protests, as I do not believe in any kind of protest. As I feel it does no good to man or beast.

As for human superiority over animals, I can quite honestly say I have never felt that. Animals have always been equal in my eyes. I feel we all have much to learn from any animal in terms of progress for own understanding as well as their own. It doesn’t necessarily have to hurt them in the process.

In the beginning…God created blah blah…he made lots of interesting little plants and flowers that really do work for most if not any kind of illness. That’s why I will always be against animal testing. But it will be a long time before governments sponsor scientific research thoroughly, into providing them with resources for making headway into holistic remedies. The whole while the medical industry is making a fortune and paying its taxes, the governments of this world are hardly likely to offer us humans any alternative to that of animal testing.

You mention about soldiers killing one another and that it is an accepted sacrifice. I agree - an accepted sacrifice for the ones who want to get there hands on the world’s last oil reserve. The soldiers themselves hardly know what they are fighting for. There probably hasn’t been an accepted sacrifice of soldiers since ww2.

Also you mention about fluffy bunnies etc in anti animal testing campaigns. Sometimes selling it this way is the only way to get the message across. Just the same as charities often sell the most adorable kids to try and raise donations for their campaigns.

I don’t have an answer to any of this animal testing cloggie. And even of there were an alternative – it won’t be in my life time.

Peace.;)

[aabram]

So now we should all go and find our local Holistic Fair, where you can find out all about such things. Advocates for Animals promotes a local one, and is just one more area of the work in which Members become involved. As it happens, there is one in Edinburgh next weekend. Failing that look for a local Holistic Chemist....again, there's one in Edinburgh.

[Margay]

On the causes of illness:

Also, I didn’t make myself that clear with the cancer thing and really should have gone into more detail. I should have mentioned that it was also a combination of toxins in the atmosphere and chemicals in food, coupled with a negative mind. So I apologise to all who may have resented my comments.

Well, Des, if you put it like that... I STILL RESENT your comment. I find it really offensive. It makes me sick to my stomach to hear people blame illness, be it cancer or any other disease or disability, on the mind of the person who gets the disease. Adding toxins and chemicals to the mix does not take away that fact.

Personally I believe the 'negative mind' theory is advocated by people who are too afraid to face their own vulnerability and mortality. They cannot accept that their existence depends on a fragile lump of flesh that will sooner or later fail them and seize to function. So they'd rather say that any disfunction in the body can be blamed on the mind and thereby also be PREVENTED by the mind. Dream on.

Do not blame me for my illness so that you can temporarily silence your existential fears.

People with a negative mind are not more likely to get ill. People who are ill are more likely to get a negative mind because we live in a society that worships health, youth and beauty and condemns the opposite.

[Margay]

Des,

Reading back my post I can see that I have not been very subtle, to say the least. I feel very strongly about this issue, hence the strong language. My anger was not meant for you personally.

Will you join me for some online tea and stroopwafels?
Margay

[Des]

Des,

Reading back my post I can see that I have not been very subtle, to say the least. I feel very strongly about this issue, hence the strong language. My anger was not meant for you personally.

Will you join me for some online tea and stroopwafels?
Margay

It's okay Margay:)

Reading back through my posts, I can see how much of a prick I have sounded. My mind often thinks in gibberish and should be contained when it comes to internet forums. I've lost count of the amount of religious forums I've been kicked out of - because of my controversial opinions. And they really are opinions – and mine amount to crap anyway.:o

And yes, I would be delighted to join you for tea and stroopwafels:)

[dutchcloggie]

You mention about soldiers killing one another and that it is an accepted sacrifice. I agree - an accepted sacrifice for the ones who want to get there hands on the world’s last oil reserve. The soldiers themselves hardly know what they are fighting for. There probably hasn’t been an accepted sacrifice of soldiers since ww2.

Mo, I was not making a point about the validity of any war. You misunderstood. I was making a point about killing people we do not know. THis seems to be 'accepted' on a personal level. As in: It is easier to kill something/someone when you have no personal relationship with it. LIke soldiers in a war killing other soldiers. THey don't know the other soldiers. THey don't think about the fact that these are peopel with families, kids, wives, husbands etc. If they did, it would get much harder to kill.

Hence we would never use our own fluffy bunny for animal testing, but using one we have never seen before is not as hard for us to accept.




Also you mention about fluffy bunnies etc in anti animal testing campaigns. Sometimes selling it this way is the only way to get the message across.

Fair enough. I was merely responding to your question about realising it is cute dogs and bunnies and cats they use and not mice and rats. Of course I know that and so do most people. THey just rpefer not to think about it. I don't. Because it upsets me. But eventhough it upsets me, it doesn't change my mind: I still think it is needed.

I would like to think in the (near) future, animal testing will not be needed anymore. Because I don't enjoy animals being used for testing. There just is no alternative at the moment.

[lucille]

Does your dog sleep in your bed?

Yep :confused: So did my cat. I didn't breast feed either of them though :D
I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

[Agnes]

Personally I believe the 'negative mind' theory is advocated by people who are too afraid to face their own vulnerability and mortality. They cannot accept that their existence depends on a fragile lump of flesh that will sooner or later fail them and seize to function. So they'd rather say that any disfunction in the body can be blamed on the mind and thereby also be PREVENTED by the mind. Dream on.

Do not blame me for my illness so that you can temporarily silence your existential fears.

People with a negative mind are not more likely to get ill. People who are ill are more likely to get a negative mind because we live in a society that worships health, youth and beauty and condemns the opposite.


Marg, I really can't agree with you on this one. I honestly can't. In spite of your second post, I got quite upset over your choice of words. I know I ought to let it go, but I've failed to do so. "Advocated by people who are too afraid to face their own vulnerability and mortality", ouch.

My body has started giving up on me in early adolescence and God knows it’s quite a struggle to get well balanced again after another part of it fails. (Yes, there’s more than meets the eye.) So to speak; I live with death on the doorstep, but it doesn’t scare me anymore. Vulnerability and mortality are my constant companions, negativity my enemy for it causes more pain than is necessary. My state of mind influences how I feel, how ill I feel.

I’m not advocating ‘blame the victim’ here. Some things just happen and you have to deal with them. I do know negative thoughts don’t get you on top of an illness. Neither do positive ones necessarily, but they’re a powerful tool. That’s not existential bullshit, nor is it merely my personal opinion. And I’ll throw in the science I’m pretty critical about now; research shows that people with a constant negative state of mind DO get ill more often than people with a positive state of mind. (I’ll get you the reference later if you want, I can’t remember the exact journal right now)

I don’t blame anyone, with or without illness, for their negative or positive way of thinking, nor am I saying there’s a CAUSAL connection between a negative state of mind and falling ill, but there sure is a correlation. And of course you’re right about “People who are ill are more likely to get a negative mind”, body and mind are entwined. But it’s not JUST society, we create society.

However, the most important thing to me is the positive mind. I find it a lot easier to cope with things in hope. No, I can’t keep that up every minute of the day. I’m human. But I still see the beautiful things in life, I enjoy, I try to accept the pain whenever I can’t fight it. I don’t think too much about the future, I don’t know whether there’ll be one. I am. Now. And that’s what matters.


Now bring on that tea, dear :) And let’s enjoy it.

[Des]

Does your dog sleep in your bed?

Yep :confused: So did my cat. I didn't breast feed either of them though :D
I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

I'm afraid your alone on this one lucille. I breast fed my cats:D

[dutchcloggie]

Does your dog sleep in your bed?

Yep :confused: So did my cat. I didn't breast feed either of them though :D
I'm sure I'm not alone in this.


OK. Bad examples. I was just trying to point out that we do not treat animals like humans because they are not humans. We tend to laugh at people who treat their pets as their children, people who 'humanise' animals. This is NOT the same as loving your animals to death and taking good care of them (or for that matter, allowing them to sleep on your bed).