Just ranting

[mixtymotions]

I've read the (anti) smoking threads here, and I have something to say about our nation's health. Perhaps smoking does contribute to the number 1 cause of death in this country - cardio vascular disease, but a much more insidious cause is obesity.

I'd like to see every fast food "restaurant" in this country 10 stories high, accessible only by 10 flights of stairs. You want a Big Mac, a Whopper, a Taco Bell Grande, Biggie fries or a late night milkshake? Great, wedge your carcass out from behind the steering wheel and waddle your butt which is busting your "jogging pants" at the seams up those 10 flights of stairs and purchase what you want.

Let's levy a hefty tax on soda pop! Machines are found in every school across this nation, contributing to our children's obesity, tooth decay, and poor nutritional habits. What happened to milk in school?

I'm tired of having the majority of the health woes in this country put on smokers. As for the real pollution, just count the mini vans and suv's on any given weekend parked at any soccer field. And really, does anyone in this country (other than the military) have a legitimate reason to be driving a Hummer?

[Dee]

Hear, Here! Mixty.

... and oh, when those who took too much
are stripped of it and judged
then mercy will provide
for the rising tide

[hoops]

our health woes are the sign of our over indulgence. and the over indugence of others. but mostly our woes are the sign of our need to learn and out resistance to it.

[Rkitko]

Let's levy a hefty tax on soda pop! Machines are found in every school across this nation, contributing to our children's obesity, tooth decay, and poor nutritional habits. What happened to milk in school?

I'm tired of having the majority of the health woes in this country put on smokers. As for the real pollution, just count the mini vans and suv's on any given weekend parked at any soccer field. And really, does anyone in this country (other than the military) have a legitimate reason to be driving a Hummer?
I may be in the anti-smoking camp, here, but I'd agree with you on most points. Healthy habits, whether it be consumption of food or other acts, should be of paramount interest.

Oh, and milk ain't all that great for you either. Just think about what it's intended purpose is for in nature: turn a small baby cow into a 400-pound heffer in months. And that silly myth perpetuated by the Dairy Industry that drinking milk makes bones healthy? Pure Bullcrap. There's more bioavailable calcium in broccoli. And research shows that any animal protein actually leeches calcium from your bones, thus any calcium that is taken up from milk is also drawn out of bones because milk has animal protein in it. That's not to say soda isn't worse, though (I stopped drinking it years ago).

Nutrition starts in the home. The parents pass their bad habits on to children. Rewarding kids with candy sets up a neverending cycle. Why pump high fructose corn syrup into beverages and every other children's food when nature produces some pretty tasty things all on its own?

It's also amusing to note that with increase globalization and the exportation of "American" (apologies to the non-American posters out there for being slightly American-centric here) culture comes the price of increased health risks (amazing anthropological and medical studies done in Asian countries pre- and post- globalization of their communities that indicate elevated risk of things like heart disease due to changing dietary habits), loss of cultural heritage and identity, etc. It's a terrible thing to watch... all in the name of profit and greed.

As for your last comment... majority of the health woes put on smokers? I don't think anyone has ever legitimately asserted that position. Personally, I blame a lot of the health problems people have here in America on the way we've developed. The political economy that established the suburbs also forced longer commutes, less involuntary walking, and created a lazy middle class. Personal anecdote: my sister lived in Italy for a couple months. During that time, she did so much walking every day to and from school and work that she was the healthiest she had ever been! She returned to America, now has a 9-5 job, lives on a Cookie Cutter cul de sac far from work, sits all day at her job, and now constantly has to struggle to keep herself active. This is no way to live! Personally, I blame Eisenhower. He had the choice of developing the extensive interstate system we know and hate or to continue to develop rail transport. The interstate system has effectively enabled people to move to less and less dense locations, fleeing the cities and taking up residence in a world where sitting on your butt is 90% of your day. Our bodies aren't meant for such inactivity. (Side note, and last bit of rantaliciousness: I also blame the interstate system for the unsustainable development patterns leading to our dependence on foreign oil. With no technology available to fully replace our current consumption, we're screwed! Our entire problem is overconsumption, not underproduction.)

Hmmm, how did this box get under my feet and why is it labeled, "soap"? :D

[Dee]

"rantaliciousness" LOL LOL LOL! :D


I also blame the interstate system for the unsustainable development patterns leading to our dependence on foreign oil. With no technology available to fully replace our current consumption, we're screwed! Our entire problem is overconsumption, not underproduction.

and check out these facts and figures on overconsumption:



Americans constitute five percent of the world's population but consume 25 percent of the world's energy. On average, one American consumes as much energy as 2 Japanese, 6 Mexicans, 13 Chinese, 31 Indians, 128 Bangladeshis, 307 Tanzanians, or 370 Ethiopians.


Because Americans eat a diet heavy in beef and other animal products, U.S. per capita grain consumption is four times higher than that of developing countries.


By 2050, the nation's population is projected to increase by nearly 130 million people - the equivalent of adding another four states the size of California. Sixty percent of pregnancies and 40 percent of births in the United States are unintended. Among industrialized countries, it has one of the highest rates of teenage pregnancy.


from: The Demographic Facts of Life in the United States
http://www.overpopulation.org/USAFactsZPG.html

[Rkitko]

Good points, Dee. I posted this in my journal the other day, but I'll repost it here. I found it very enlightening...



"Greed and appropriation of other people's share of the planet's precious resources are at the root of conflicts, and the root of terrorism. When President Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair announced that the goal of the global war on terrorism is the defense of the American and European 'way of life,' they are declaring a war against the planet--its oil, its water, its biodiversity. A way of life for the 20 percent of the earth's people who use 80 percent of the planet's resources will dispossess 80 percent of its people of their just share of resources and eventually destroy the planet. We cannot survive as a species if greed is privileged and protected and the economics of the greedy set the rules for how we live and die."
-Vandana Shiva, Water Wars: Privatization, Pollution, and Profit


Also a good point about American's consumption patterns of meat... It's quite ridiculous. One of the many reasons I'm a vegetarian :D

Ah, and the population increase in the US is due almost entirely to immigration. Birth rates are at or slightly (but rather insignificantly) above "replacement"--true replacement would mean 2 children for every family (one to replace "mom" and the other to replace "dad").


...Got any room up there in Canada for a US refugee? It's not looking to pretty down here right now. Whatever did happen to that MarryAnAmerican website that appeared after the 2004 Presidential election? haha

[Eva]

Whatever did happen to that MarryAnAmerican website

Don't know about that one. But I'll be happy to marry an American (butch country, compared to Europe!!! ;) ) if gay marriage is an option.

Eva

[Dee]

Well certainly we in Canada have our own set of similar problems, so if you are expecting to marry into paradise, you might be disillusioned.

Cases of obesity and gross obesity are on the rise here too. I could blame that on the import of fast food outlets from south of our shared border, but I think we all know it comes down to personal lack of willpower and self-care, and delaying gratification seems to be less of an option in our stressed out lives, unfortunately.


Obesity is a more serious condition than being overweight because there is a greater risk for serious illnesses. Excess weight in all parts of the body puts an added burden on all body functions. The most common complications are high blood pressure, stroke, heart disease, diabetes mellitus,osteoarthritis, impaired functioning of the heart and lungs, gallbladder disease, hyperlipidemia (or increased fats in the body, often associated with higher cholesterol levels resulting in heart disease and/or stroke).

If you are grossly obese, it will be more difficult for you to obtain such health care services as good physical exams, x-rays, and surgeries. In men, obesity can lead to increased risk of cancer of the colon, prostate, and rectum. In women, obesity can lead to increased risk of cancer of the breast, uterus, and cervix.

http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C11/C11Links/www.med.umich.edu/1libr/primry/life14.htm

[Rkitko]

Don't know about that one. But I'll be happy to marry an American (butch country, compared to Europe!!! ;) ) if gay marriage is an option.

Eva
We could have a sham marriage, Eva. Wouldn't it be interesting to say aloud to an acquaintance, "Oh! Look at the time! Sorry, I've got to run... My girlfriend is on her way over and I need to get dinner going before my husband and his boyfriend get home." ;) The baffled expression would be worth it.

[Rkitko]

Well certainly we in Canada have our own set of similar problems, so if you are expecting to marry into paradise, you might be disillusioned.

Tongue-in-cheek, my friend :) Find me an Italian citizen--then I'd be in paradise! just kidding, I know they have their problems, too. I'm actually resolved to sticking where I am and trying to improve what I can through personal effort and <s>forcing my opinion down others' throats</s> (Darn, HTML code is off... that's supposed to have a line through it... a strikethrough effect) helping other's understand my philosophies. ;)

[Irish Beth]

What ever happened to live and let live? Or judge not, lest ye be judged?

Everyone is responsible for their own health. Why is eveyone so anxious to throw taxes on anyone whose behaviour offends them. Put McDonalds and other places on towers?? Did you ever stop to think that some people in this country use fast food because it's affordable. Not everyone has access to fresh fruits and vegatables, lean cuts of meat, whole grain bread, etc.

If you are really concerned about the nation's health, why don't you stop pointing fingers at people you really know nothing about. Are those of you who want to tax or inhibit what YOU percieve as bad behaviour so sure that your own life is a healthy model for the world. Can we follow you around for a month and point out all the unhealthy things you do and then hold you up for everyone to shake their fingers at you? How about the chocolate bar you had yesterday, lets increase the tax on them 100 fold.

You want to make America healthy? How about a few positives instead of negatives.

Abolishing poverty in America would do lots to cut health care costs.

Providing preventative medical care for all would also help a great deal (this includes dental, eye, and mental health services)

Stop cutting school funds for after school programs so kids are less likely to become couch potatoes.

Enact stricter laws on the FDA so that we have safer and cleaner environments to raise our food supply - less pesticides - less chicken farms that don't allow movement or acceptable methods of waste removal.

Increase the number of National Parks and protected forests and equip them with bike and hiking trails for people living in Urban areas.

Stop closing community swimming pools.

Increase community activities like 5K races, or bike races and use the funds raised to equip local playgrounds.

There are a million things we could do to encourage better health than sitting in Ivory Towers and casting stones on others.

[gisli]

......I need alonger time to go through all of those long words here in this thread with my dictionary, but after reading Irish Beth post, why do I get the feeling that she points out some good things here and........that Randy will soon be posting:confused: ....

[Amy in Vermont]

I have something to say about our nation's health. Perhaps smoking does contribute to the number 1 cause of death in this country - cardio vascular disease, but a much more insidious cause is obesity.



I've written about this here before, but here goes again:

I am a smoker, and I am somewhat obese. One cannot argue with Mixty's statements above that both are root contributors to cardiovascular and other diseases. But before anyone rants and lectures me, remember what Irish Beth said: What ever happened to live and let live? Or judge not, lest ye be judged?

I smoke half a pack a day, down from a full pack + 2 years ago. I am 5' 3" tall and weigh 230 lbs. No one needs to tell me that I am overweight, that my health is in jeopardy.

My weight has been an issue for me since I was 5 years old, if not earlier. I have dieted, exercised, not dieted, not excercised, combines in every way you can imagine, all my life. At summer camp, for 8 years, I was made to sit at the "diet table". I have watched my peers go out for ice cream, while I stayed behind. My mother did everything she could to provide us with healthy meals. I continue to try and be careful about what and how much I eat, within reason. For me, sucess is not measured by losing weight, it is measured by NOT gaining.

I strongly beleive that genetics plays a large role in wieght issues, at least in my case. While my dad, at 90, is not the least bit overweight, he had his struggles earlier on, and maintains a rigorous exercise regimen to this day. My mom, now that her Alzheimer's restricts her ability to be active, is gaining weight, inspite of not eating alot at all. My only sibling, my brother, has fought the same battle as I have all his life.

Of our 4 grandparents, 3 were "robust" individuals, inspite of, or perhaps enhanced by, the poverty they endured all their lives: http://community.middlebury.edu/~aehoffma/morefamily.htm . The way i see it, I didn't stand a chance to be "svelte", and frankly, I am damned tired of fighting!

A

[Dee]

You want to make America healthy? How about a few positives instead of negatives.

Beth,

I was speaking as a Canadian (not being of your country), but the facts and statistics were from the US, since this topic was begun by someone from there. A little credit, please.


Well certainly we in Canada have our own set of similar problems, so if you are expecting to marry into paradise, you might be disillusioned.

Cases of obesity and gross obesity are on the rise here too. I could blame that on the import of fast food outlets from south of our shared border, but I think we all know it comes down to personal lack of willpower and self-care, and delaying gratification seems to be less of an option in our stressed out lives, unfortunately.

I stand by those statements, and disagree with your assessment that eating at a fast food franchise is of financial necessity. Unless McDonald's in your country sells its junk at a price far lower than here in Canada, what I would spend in one visit I could live on for at least a day. And no, I don't order more than one or two items at a time.

Now we were having a reasoned, rational, adult discussion based on facts and mutual respect. If you are going to jump in and criticize that, and point fingers and throw stones (your own words), then perhaps you have missed the boat.

We have all worked hard not to fall backward into the bad habits on these forums of not so long ago, so also in your own words, why not just live and let live?

Please Beth. I ask you to reconsider what you perceived about this thread and not jump to conclusions and generalizations ... for everybody's sake.



We now return you to our regularly scheduled program already in progress. ;)



Amy,

Your point about heredity is a good one.

Also included in the link I posted above ( http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C11/C...mry/life14.htm ):


Is obesity hereditary?

Heredity is a contributing factor. Children who have obese parents are 10 times more likely to become obese adults than children who have parents of normal weight. There is also an environmental factor because unhealthy eating habits may be reinforced in families. A few obese people have an imbalance of hormones.

[Rkitko]

Yep, Dee's correct on the genetic contributions to obesity. From the figures I've seen, though, only about 5% of obesity cases in the US can be attributed to genetic hormonal imbalances.

As for Irish Beth's comments... If we're not able to provide reasonably-priced healthy sources of food, we're doing something wrong.

And the things you've mentioned aren't just my opinion of what's unhealthy--there is research that concludes these habits cannot ever be called healthy or good for you. Everyone is entitled to their own choices in life, but not everyone is well-informed enough to make the best decisions.

On the subject of sin taxes, I only agree with them if the funds generated from them are used solely for the purpose of education of why those products aren't the best choices.

The rest of your suggestions are great! Let's get on that! And really, I had to discover these healthy habits one at a time. I sincerely wish that there was someone in my youth that had exposed me to all these ideas and established these good habits at a younger age. I wish my parents had been more strict with me when I insisted on going to fast food places--I was a child and seduced by the prospect of the plastic toys made in China included with my meal (what a horrible thing to do!).

[david uk]

Irish Beth, I am totally with you on your suggestions on how to improve public health- all good ideas.

the one area I would disagree with is that fast food is the only viable option for low income families- it is not. I have been through very tough times in the last year and have often been able to feed myself healthily for 2-3 days for the price of one MacDonald's meal.

The other point is that it is well known that while fast food fills you up quickly, it also leaves you feeling hungry much more quickly as it doesn't actually contain any real nutrition, so you would actually end up eating more of them.

I also dislike the way fast food companies target small kids in their advertising- smiling ronald, giving away Disney toys etc- so that small kids recognise the MacDonald's logo before they can count (recent uk survey). Educating young kids to eat badly has to be wrong.

2 pieces of good news-

1/ In Sweden they have outlawed advertising aimed at children

2/ In the UK and Europe generally MacDonald's have had a considerable decrease in sales over the past few years and are even closing "restaurants"

Again, I wholeheartedly agree with the other points you mentioned Beth


just my 20p (UK equivalent of 2 cents:) )

david x

[Irish Beth]

First of all I NEVER said Fast Food was the only viable option for the poor. I said SOMETIMES it is a fiscal choice. I work in downtown Pittsburgh - I can get a hamburger and a small iced tea for about $1.50 at McDonalds. A hamburger and drink at a "non fast food" place runs about $6.50. Huge difference.

At no point did I disagree with one statistic, or one healthy fact. My intention was to remind us all that not too long ago lots of feelings were hurt on this very subject which caused some people to leave this board and others to become so angry they started fires anywhere and everywhere they could.

As for Irish Beth's comments... If we're not able to provide reasonably-priced healthy sources of food, we're doing something wrong.
Guess what, we are doing something wrong.

My point is, I think we all know that smoking and obesity are bad for us, we do not need to be hit over the head with this information. We all get it. But no where on this board have I ever seen the kind of positive suggestions that I posted. It is alot easier to just say, "if it weren't for the fatties and the smokers, life would be a lot better for all of us". That may not be the message that you are INTENDING to send out, but, unfortunately, that is what a lot of us PERCEIVE your message to be.

[david uk]

[QUOTE=Irish Beth]First of all I NEVER said Fast Food was the only viable option for the poor. I said SOMETIMES it is a fiscal choice. I work in downtown Pittsburgh - I can get a hamburger and a small iced tea for about $1.50 at McDonalds. A hamburger and drink at a "non fast food" place runs about $6.50. Huge difference.

At no point did I disagree with one statistic, or one healthy fact. My intention was to remind us all that not too long ago lots of feelings were hurt on this very subject which caused some people to leave this board and others to become so angry they started fires anywhere and everywhere they could.

Guess what, we are doing something wrong.

[QUOTE]

Beth, sorry if I misquoted you- it was not my intention :)

and again I did say I totally agree with your suggestions for improving public health.

You mention the difference in price between a hamburger at a fast food outlet and elsewhere... my point is ... why eat the hamburger? it's unhealthy wherever it comes from... we do have a choice.

david xx

[Irish Beth]

David,

Some of us like hamburgers, and also, even a small tossed salad and drink costs about $3.00 at McDonalds - still twice what a burger costs. But I was only discussing price before - healthier choices do exist in Fast Food places - fruit, yogart, salads, etc. However, it is still hard to beat the price of the original burger and small drink.

[Eva]

British popular chef Jamie Oliver has done a series of programmes about how to make schoolmeals more healthy. By gaining info on the subject of schoolmeals he came to the shocking conclusion that the government gives Brittish schools only 59 pence per school per meal! Schoolmeals also have to be done fast. That's were the fast-food comes in.

So he has been to a school and took a look at what was served to the children. He found hamburgers, pizza's, fries, stuff like that. Everything was pressed and pre-fab, with lots of additives, etc. and hardly any vitamins. He did interviews with children about the food and they told him that this is what they liked. It was what they also get at home. Another shock: the kids ate this at home too!?

Jamie tried to give children an alternative. They didn't like all the 'green' stuff, they said. (After that he chose an alternative to make a pizza and 'hide' the veggies in the sauce) Besides, after counting what such a meal would cost, he got to 2 pounds 20 pence per meal (or something like that) This was considered to be way too expensive. Besides the children didn't like it. They wanted their fastfood. And preparing this kind of food took too much time for the schoolkitchenstaffs.

Now, Jamie Oliver is a chefkook. He has never worked with a small budget. He can always use the all the ingredients he wants, add 50% to the price and sell it in his restaurant. Which is quite realistic if you look at the fact he also has to pay rent, staff, etc. Cooking 'the other way around' proved to be a big challenge for him. But very realistic if you look at what schoolkitchenstaffs have to work with.

I haven't seen part two of the series about this subject but I do know, that children didn't like his alternatives. I think he even got the food thrown at him once. They wanted their fast-food back and not the healthy stuff.

Interesting, isn't it? Does one of the British Rudies know more about how all this ended? I don't think that Jamie's findings are 'scientific' proof at all. But still, it's interesting. I am not too fond of his cookingprogrammes, but I found this one an eye-opener.

Also I don't pretend to know anything about Brittish schools. Because I don't. I know that in Dutch schools everybody brings his / her own sandwich and there is a sodamachine. Sometimes also a machine with snacks like chocolate, etc. And maybe some powdered soup or soup from a can.

Is that a better alternative? I am not sure. Depends on what parents give their children and if children eat it. Lots of my classmates used to throw their healthy sandwich out and buy a chocolatebar.

Eva

[david uk]

Eva there is now a revolution starting in school food in the UK and children are finally starting to enjoy vegetables and healthy stuff, and it is actually aiding their concentration and performance.

Beth, again I take your point that you enjoy a burger ( I also consume many unhealthy things that I like!:p )... but you mention the price of a salad at MacDonald's ... you could actually make one cheaper than that (and much more tasty) yourself...

xxx

[AceOn6]

You mention the difference in price between a hamburger at a fast food outlet and elsewhere... my point is ... why eat the hamburger? it's unhealthy wherever it comes from... we do have a choice. david xx

My small salad today was $4. Fresh veggies are the most expensive items in our food service. I could have had a burger and fries for $2.50 or 1/6 of a greasy pizza for $2.25. Those are the two cheapest items on the menu. While I've never done a scientific survey, I do observe that the lower paid staff tend to gravitate to the cheaper items when they don't bring food from home.

The other big culprit is portion sizes. For a kid who was told to always clean her plate, it took me a while to realize that the Italian platter at our local restaurant contains three meals. My unrepentent (and slightly overweight) husband insists there's only one.

[Irish Beth]

In the US I could not make a salad from scratch for under $3.00 - unless I bought enough ingredients to eat that same salad for an entire week with no variations. Not something appealing to me.

I could by a pre-made bagged salad, however, there were stories on the news last week that they were full or bacteria (inculding ecoli) and that they were the most dangerous food in the vegetable section.

With very few exceptions here in the US it is difficult to find anyone who will sell you one piece of celery - you must buy an entire stock - one carrot - you must buy a pre-packaged bag - one raddish - again sold in groups, etc. So the price of making a tasty salad is well over $3.00 Aside from that, the price of fruits and vegetables can vary wildly depending on climate changes, trucking strikes, or a host of other unforseen problems. Since most of our food is trucked in this country - the high price of gasoline will also be passed on to the consumer.

These are all reasons why those individuals with budget constraints find it hard to have a heathful eating regime. Whats cheaper than the ever popular macorini and cheese - what could be more unhealthy. Go to an all-natural bakery and see how much no sugar added, healthy, organic, oatmeal cookies cost. You can buy a couple dozen store brand chocolate chip slice and bake cookies for $0.99 on sale.

But this is another discussion for another time. All I was ever trying to say it's lets discuss what we as a community can do to improve health for those who are so inclined to strive for a healthier environment. It's too easy to just take pop shots at individual behaviours.

[david uk]

point made Beth

pretty cheap to buy fruit and veg here, but I take your point

xxx

[RedjackRyan]

Keep in mind that the american mindset is MORE for the money, not More Quality for the money..


I'd love to be able to offer organic foods on my menu, but as Beth points out, the prices are ridiculous. For what i'd pay for a tray of Organic tomatos, i could buy a pallet of regular ones. frankly, to be honest.. I doubt most Americans could tell the difference anyway. In that regard, i do envy Europeans in the availabilty of fresh produce readily at hand.

The two years that i did offer a 'healthy menu' i nearly lost my shirt, the products didn't move well and i ended up having quite a bit go to waste. Even the folks that had requested various dietary concious food items were the first ones to order up the Big rack of ribs slathered in sauce as opposed to the healthy grilled chicken.. <rolls eyes> its a no win for folks in the food industry, yer damned if you don't and operating at a loss if you do.

[AceOn6]

The two years that i did offer a 'healthy menu' i nearly lost my shirt, the products didn't move well and i ended up having quite a bit go to waste. Even the folks that had requested various dietary concious food items were the first ones to order up the Big rack of ribs slathered in sauce as opposed to the healthy grilled chicken.. <rolls eyes> its a no win for folks in the food industry, yer damned if you don't and operating at a loss if you do.

Same in our area, although there is one rib joint that seems to have pulled it off. They offer "guilt reduction" sides on an a la carte basis and they do really well with them. They make a steamed wax bean that is to die for and is the perfect compliment to a full rack of baby backs. No more slaw for me.

[RedjackRyan]

hmmm, Ace.. Thats a good gimmick, Guilt Reduction sides. I like that concept, maybe i'll give it another go on a smaller scale. I really would like to offer something to counter-balance the heaviness of the main menu. The folks i'm really worried about are the ones that order five or six slabs a week.. i'd love to run a camera through those arteries!

I do offer a healthier version of the traditional coleslaw and that has sold well (2nd best seller actually) just a light seasoned vinegar dressing as opposed to the goop. I suppose there is a market for healthy food out there somewhere, I just know its not Pittsburgh.

and since i'm in for a penny, i may as well go in for a pound and share my philosophy on food.. everything in moderation. I still love a big ole steak, but instead of the 2lb porterhouse i've scaled back to the 1/4lb filet or strip. I don't wolf a whole bag of doritos when 5 or 6 chips will satisfy the craving. I've made peace with the fact that i'll never be at my fighting weight again thanks to the style of cuisine that i've chosen to devote my energy to, but i'm pleased to say that by moderating what i eat I feel better than i have in years and i'm content with that.

[mixtymotions]

What ever happened to live and let live? Or judge not, lest ye be judged?
If you are really concerned about the nation's health, why don't you stop pointing fingers at people you really know nothing about. Are those of you who want to tax or inhibit what YOU percieve as bad behaviour so sure that your own life is a healthy model for the world. Can we follow you around for a month and point out all the unhealthy things you do and then hold you up for everyone to shake their fingers at you? How about the chocolate bar you had yesterday, lets increase the tax on them 100 fold.
There are a million things we could do to encourage better health than sitting in Ivory Towers and casting stones on others.

My goodness, Beth - take a deep breath! My comments were not aimed at anyone personally, or I would have used names. My anger is directed at fast food restaurants, who offer us many empty calories and very little nutrition. If Americans had to make an effort to obtain these foods, (even the simple act of having to actually walk into these establishments) without the convenience of rolling up in our gas-guzzling vehichles, perhaps the fare they offer wouldn't be so enticing.

Soda machines in schools are simply a bad idea, and is a contributing factor to our children becoming obese. I don't mean overweight, which most Americans are, including myself, I mean morbid obesity, which is a serious matter.

I don't eat chocolate bars, so yes, let's levy a tax on them too. The city I live in recently levied a VERY heavy tobacco tax, punishing those who choose to smoke, and I find that to be very objectionable. No, I don't smoke, and I object to the notion that those entrusted with making such decisions chose to single out smokers. Why not increase instead the tax on the executive's bottle of scotch? I consider him (behind the wheel of his car) a far bigger danger to my health than smokers.

I don't live in an Ivory Tower, it's a split level brick and stick.

I respect your opinions, Beth!

[Randy & Betty in Pa]

Live and let live... If someone has a habit that I don't care for I think the idea of legislation to change it is wrong.... We all should make our own decisions and worry less about others whos decisions we might not agree with...... If you don't like or respect a person for a habit that a person has thats your right... Kinda shallow but then IT'S YOUR DECISION....Think people... Think

best to all

R from Pa.

[Eva]

Eh... okay Randy... as long as I don't have to bite anyone here... :eek:

Eva

[Bat]

I think the main argument against general obesity in a population is the terrific increase in the cost of insurance, especially publicly funded insurance, like Medicare, and the cost of insurance to employers who fund it for their workers. It is a major cost of doing business in the U.S.

[Rkitko]

Keep in mind that the american mindset is MORE for the money, not More Quality for the money..

I'd love to be able to offer organic foods on my menu, but as Beth points out, the prices are ridiculous. For what i'd pay for a tray of Organic tomatos, i could buy a pallet of regular ones. frankly, to be honest.. I doubt most Americans could tell the difference anyway. In that regard, i do envy Europeans in the availabilty of fresh produce readily at hand.

Ever investigated joining a Community-Supported Agricultural (CSA) farm? Price is pretty cheap, cheaper than buying organic foods from the grocery store or distributers. Some are even comparable to the cheapest fast food places.

[Randy & Betty in Pa]

You know, once again we are locked in a topic that serves only to show how little respect we can sometimes have for one another... To those that support legislating all these things you are freely giving away freedoms that were fought for by our veterans.... The idea of government is NOT to legislate everything.... You want to discuss abuses... Thats the best place to start...It's funny for many years schools had soda machines and still the earth held it's axis without laws banning them.... And honestly very few students have died from school cafeteria food over the past 40 or so years...If your concerned with your child being obese then it is you responsibility to instill in him the self confidence or whatever parental method you may choose to correct his or her actions to your liking, Hell you could even pack their lunch... BUT it is not your job to play parent for every child...If it's not your child you just tend to allienate them and cause their friend to learn to redicule them .... Get this through your heads..... Constant badgering wether over weight or smoking or naked tap dancing serves no other purpose but to annoy... And when one gets annoyed they often find that the absolute cause to re-enforce the (in your opinion) negative action that bothers you so much.... People REBEL when badgered.... Tell a teen not to smoke and the first thing many do is go out and buy cigarettes.... Tell me I can't have a hoagie and I will have three... But as this topic drags deeper and deeper and continues it's never ending pattern of abuse I can assure you that some people will be angered and annoyed... I know this from the past, and yes we have in the past lost valuable friends from this board simply because they were either bothered or embarrased by the ongoing hammering effect... I often find myself both disapointed and angered when people presume to tell me the solution to problems is tax them, or badger people.... I'd bet if you took a second and considered it you might find that you have friends that either smoke or are a bit overweight... But heres a flash to all you budding brain surgeons out there... They already know it. and maybe they agree with you or perhaps they don't... But in any case lecturing them to following others lifestyles isn't gonna work....Thats about as dumb as the United States trying to form a democracy in Iraq when our government dosent work... Consider this... If you have a friend, accept them for who they are... Lecture them and I'll bet you will have one less friend....

PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN GLASS HOUSES JUST SHOULD NOT!:D

Best to all
R. from Pa

[Irish Beth]

I apologize that you felt I was attacking you personally. That was not my intention, but in retrospect I can certainly see why you would feel that way. I should have done a better job of making it clear I was addressing the issue of legislating behavior and not picking out any one person.

I guess lack of personal responsibility is the issue that bothers me. If I drive through McDonalds and order everything fattening on the menu - that is my choice. No one holds a gun to your head and makes you eat fast food. Commercials sell everything from sugary cereals to alcohol to junk food. They always have. And those of us of a certain age grew up saying we wanted our Maypo and that frosted flakes were Grrrrrrate and somehow the majority of us are alive and fairly well. I do believe there should be some restrictions on advertising during childrens programming - but I believe the bigger problem is that most parents don't know how or when to say NO. When I was a kid they put toys in cereal to get you to buy it, of course we took the toy and never ate the cereal. One experience like that taught my mother not to fall for the "I really like this cereal - I had it at Timmy's house" routine.

I think the good old days were so good becuase parents were more interested in having polite well behavied kids instead of kids who keep up with their peers and were POPULAR. I don't think my parents ever felt guilty for not spending "quality" time with us, they provided a roof, food, clothing, education, and love. They spent all the time they could with us while still taking a little for themselves. My parents used to walk hand and hand down to the local Howard Johnsons for a soda or milkshake - we would ask to come and they would say no. We lived, we survived, more importantly we learned to cherish the security our parent's love for each other provided for us. Asked which child they liked best - my parents always said they liked each other best. We asked that question all the time because we loved to hear that answer.

It is so easy to blame others for our own weakness. If there was no McDonalds - we would all be healthier. Really? Like Redjack said when he tried to sell a healthier menu he lost his shirt. If there were no tobacco companies we would have a smoke-free environment. Really? Before big tobacco people rolled their own - and millions smoke weed without the convenience of going to a store and buying a pack already made. In fact despite every law and leglislation is anyone ready to say we are winning the war on drugs? I don't think so, because if people want something badly enough they will do whatever it takes to get it.

Each of us is responsible for our decisions and choices and we all need to step up to the plate and have the balls to say so.

[Randy & Betty in Pa]

Well said Irish Beth...

[Dee]

Each of us is responsible for our decisions and choices and we all need to step up to the plate and have the balls to say so.

Right on, Beth!

[dutchcloggie]

A bit late to the debate here, I know but still.....

Yes, fast food is frequently cheaper than healthy food. But it would be wrong to suggest only 'poor' people are fat/obese because of the food they eat.

McDonalds offers Kiddie meals with carrots or fries. I have never seen a parent pick the carrots to go with their kid's meal.......eventhough they cost exactly the same.

Parents actively shoved burgers through the gates at the school where Jamie Oliver introduced fresh vegetables to school dinners!!

Restaurants serving huge portions, people buying & eating more food than they need etc. etc. etc.

There are a lot of reasons for being fat/obese and there are a lot of social stigmas attached to it. And yes, most of he time, chips are cheaper than fresh veggies (although you could just buy a bag of potatoes and BOIL them for a change).

But for most of the 'problem cases' that people are so worried about, it is simply a matter of making the wrong choices when choosing their food. Because surely people all over the world now are not suddenly poor, leaving them no other option than to eat fast food?

There is a lot more going on than just that. I used to cycle everywhere, being from Holland. To school, to work, to the shops. Everywhere. Not a day went by without cycling for at least 30 minutes. Now I live in England where nobody uses a bike as a utility vehicle to get around. No cycle tracks, drivers putting cyclists' lives in danger etc. And without changing my diet, I gained 1 stone within 1 year. The only thing I changed was that I no longer cycle.

In many countries, people are not used to moving around as part of their life style: Driving to work, school busses etc. We had none of that inHolland. Many of my classmates had to cycle for 30 minutes to get to school. We weren't fat. And I ate loads of sweets & fastfood when I was young. (Without my parents knowing about it of course).

So, as far as I am concerned, the first step is not so much to ban fast food. It is to improve and encourage the availability of exercise: Cycling to school, playing outside, swimming with the kids. etc. etc. That alone will help.

Sorry if I am waaaaay off the point here.

[Marcia Drummergal]

I am late to the party as I have spent the week with a miserable case of stomach flu. So don't even TALK to me about food! LOL

I just wanted to add an observation. I thought it was interesting 3 years ago when we travelled to Ontario, Canada. We stopped at a "Perkins" restaurant. Some in the US may be familiar with them. Kind of a "serves breakfast all day" but also serves everything else kind of place. What fascinated me was the portions were much smaller than what would be served at a "Perkins" in the US. I ordered my French toast...fewer slices, less bacon, etc. Yep...eating healthy! But I was satisfied. Didn't need what wasn't served! And it made me think a lot about our culture. Here in the US, "all you can eat" restaurants are popular. And it seems like there are wars between restaurants to see who can fill the plates fuller and higher. For me, I just need to eat in moderation and ALWAYS ask for a box (I miss the days when it was called a "doggie bag!") ;)

Do I have a point? Hmmm I don't know! I guess this just reminded me of the changes we encountered when we crossed the border. And this is not to be confused with crossing into Quebec. I gained 5 pounds in Quebec the week we were there. They don't share Ontario's idea of "moderation."

I believe in choice. We all should have the choice to eat what we want, drink what we want, etc. It is a shame if we hurt ourselves in the process but it's freedom. I don't believe in choices that hurt others, as in driving drunk. But I think that's been covered here somewhere......I am rambling.

Marcia :) Peace to all!

[Randy & Betty in Pa]

I just need to eat in moderation and ALWAYS ask for a box (I miss the days when it was called a "doggie bag!") ;)


Marcia now, now...

Thats downright discriminatory... I mean just think how left out cats must feel!!!! The politically correct term is now "Critter container!"....

Best to all... Looking forward to seeing some of you next week :)

R. from Pa

[mixtymotions]

Tell me I can't have a hoagie and I will have three...

As is your right to do so, Randy, as an adult. Children lack impulse control and the ability to make sound decisions. Don't we have an obligation to at least provide them with healthy choices?

Yes, prevention begins at home. But, put a machine offering chips, candy and soda in front of a child who has been asked or told, or forbidden to have these items and how many will they buy?

Pack their lunch? Sure, great idea, and for those parents who want their kids to have chips, candy and soda, pack it in their lunch. But don't offer those things to every child.

It doesn't require legislation to have or not have these machines in schools - every school district is run by school board members who make the decisions.

Granted, I finished school before the crust of the Earth had cooled, and the only soda machine was in the teacher's lounge. Pizza day was a big event, even if it was soggy, cafeteria pizza.

It wasn't my intent to lecture or badger anyone. I thought adults could discuss about any topic here in the Zoo. Still being relatively new here, I was unaware that weight and eating habits were a touchy subject. My apologies to any who were offended and my thanks to those of you who expressed your opinions. Sometimes true intent is mucked up from thought, to text, to interpretation.

[Randy & Betty in Pa]

LOL where to start....

Ahhhh Hi Mixty .. (thats a good place)

Welllllllll, as to soda or candy machines in the schools.... We had them and many of us actually survived.... And yes we even had a schoolboard then back when my part time 8th grade summer job was working on Noah's ark... They even did things other then deal with taking on parental responsibilities... They made sure lunches were avaiable, maybe not the best tasting but it beat the hell out of army or hospital food LOL.... Today school boards are more involved in such things as soda machines, diets, prayers in class and saying that Pledge of Allegence, attempting to ban such pornography as the Wizard of Oz or Harry Potter from the library and funding sports often at the sacrifice of music and art programs that silly matters like educating children seem to fall to the wayside...

I think the thing I choose to whine most about is when the politically correct overstep their bounds.... We've all read the horror stories in the news.... A student suspended under the zero tolerence drug program for taking prescription medication to school.... A Seven year old student taking a butter knife to spread peanut butter and jelly on his home packed lunch and being suspended.... A child was suspended for getting a telephone call DURING LUNCH in the cafeteria from his mother who was serving in Iraq....

I hear people complain about smokers as they have been trained to do from watching the Anti-smoking commercials by the government on TV...Then as you have seen in this thread the guilt trips come about aimed at the smokers... Yet trust me there are far more pollutents in the air other then cigarette smoke.... I for one am an extremely curteous smoker... but I am a smoker....

People blame the fast food joints for obesity, thats like blaming cars for killing... I think there is a point of personal responsibility here somewhere and I accept mine and who am I or anyone else to tell others that the legal act they are performing wether smoking, drinking, eating or wearing a helmet while driving a motorcycle. If the people cross the line that makes the act illegal then so be it... But that line is crossed by choice and those that cross that line should be the ones to suffer the effect... Not all Smokers, drinkers or drivers... Actaully the idea of paying higher auto insurance because there are drunk drivers is rediculous.... Those drunk drivers should pay that cost... not safe drivers.... Health insurance costs more for smokers....

And yes this is the zoo where anything can be discussed, though often perhaps we should consider though it can be discussed, should it if we know it will bother or upset others? The topic of obesity has offended many in the past has and I can safely tell you the idea of people lecturing me on my smoking habits can be annoying... Not because of the topic as much as the support people cast to the politicians that push such bans in an obvious attempt to limit things that should be a matter of FREE choice... The purpose of laws are NOT to limit rights and freedoms but instead protect them....I have no problem if the owner of a restaraunt wishes it to be smoke free...But that should be the owners choice not the governments... Especially when such legislation is so unfairly passed to limit small business... Its funny small bars and restaurants can not allow smoking in many states... BUT the casino's are exempt.... Your car is inspected to limit polution but government vehicles are exempt.... Kennedy's & Bush's don't get tickets... do you? LOL Get the drift?

That said, I'm not annoyed.... Just live and let live.... LOL Hows that for incoherent ranting... ;)

Best to all

R. from Pa

[mixtymotions]

And howdy-do to you, Randy!

Just curious if you've watched Shalom in the Home, or Honey, We're Killing the Kids?

Schools have effectively undermined parent's attempts to teach their children good nutrition by offering them fast food items, sweets, chips and sodas. I'm sure school's were at first lured into purchasing soda/candy machines with the expectation of receiving a decent percentage of the funds generated. Seemed like a good idea at the time! I wonder how the revenue is spent, as, like you send, schools are dealing with ever increasing budget cuts and the arts are the first cut.

School's are trustees of our children, and they should be expected to protect our children - no child needs junk food or soda to grow a strong mind and body. Parents who do not wish for their children to have these foods and drinks cannot be at school to monitor if Sally is putting her lunch money in a machine, or purchasing a lunch meal. The school will phone the parents or send a note home if little Johnny is caught smoking in the boy's room, but not if he eats 3 candy bars a day, washed down with soda. It's no wonder so many children are "diagnosed" with learning disabilities! We're setting our children up for life-long bad choices when it comes to food, and a great deal of prevention could occur in the schools.

Randy, I suspect you ate whatever your Mom and your school and your military put in front of you, you were grateful to have it, and it was nutritious, if not always tasty. My children (who were taught good eating habits) now have children of their own, and do you think they can get their kids to eat vegetables? They won't eat baked chicken - they want it battered and deep fried, like KFC. They don't want a plain hamburger patty on a plate, they want a McDonald's burger. They don't want milk or juice or water, they want a soda. The only conclusion that makes sense to me is that these foods are served in schools, and now it's what children expect to be on the dinner table too. Who doesn't love sugar and fatty foods? I know *I* do, and given a choice, children will choose these foods.

Remember when kids would actually work for a nickle, to go buy a candy bar? The Easter basket chocolate bunny, chocolate "gold coins" in a Christmas stocking and birthday cake and ice cream were something to look forward to! Remember when soda was a treat - usually only served at picnics? Remember when ice cream was a seasonal, summertime treat, and you had to actually chase the truck down the street to get a treat?

I'm all for free choice, Randy - and all adults should eat/drink/smoke whatever they want - but let's not sabotage our children when they are so young by giving them so many opportunities to overindulge fatty/sugary foods.

I loved Beth's story of her parents WALKING hand in hand to HoJo's to get a milkshake - that was really the basis of my whole rant - make an effort to obtain the foods we know are bad for us, but so darned convenient. If we had to walk up even one flight of stairs for a Big Mac, would we do it, if salads and yogurt were available at the drive-thru?

Smokers now have to make an effort to smoke - banished to balconies and backs of buildings in all sorts of unpleasant weather. Is it a deterrent to their smoking? Maybe... Is levying heavy taxes of tobacco products a deterrent to their smoking? Maybe... I'm curious to see the outcome of all the anti-smoking legislation, when enough people stop smoking to cause an impact on local and national tax bases - who will they tax next?

Do I agree that smokers should be forced outside to smoke? No, but it seems the majority does.

Randy, I won't mention weight again in any forum, now that I know it is such a sensitive issue. Personally, I like being a little plump - I have less wrinkles than my peers! Or, in Amy's words, I enjoy being ROBUST!