Pope Says No Communion For Mexican Offiicals

[ponytail]

Pope Sends Mexico Tough Abortion Message
By VICTOR L. SIMPSON, Associated Press Writer

1 hour ago

ABOARD THE PAPAL PLANE - Pope Benedict XVI denounced Mexico City politicians Wednesday for voting to legalize abortion, saying they should no longer receive Communion.

Flying to Latin America, Benedict was asked about comments by Mexico City church officials that the lawmakers would be excommunicated for having voted last month for the legislation legalizing abortion in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy.

"It's nothing new, it's normal, it wasn't arbitrary. It is what is foreseen by the church's doctrine," Benedict told reporters aboard a plane to Brazil in his first full-fledged news conference since becoming pontiff in 2005.

Reporters flying with the pope took his comments to mean that he endorsed the comments by Mexican churchmen that the lawmakers should be excommunicated.

But the Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, later issued a statement approved by the pope clarifying the remarks. The statement said the pope did not intend to excommunicate anyone. Politicians who vote in favor of abortion should not receive the sacrament of Holy Communion, Lombardi said.

"Since excommunication hasn't been declared by the Mexican bishops, the pope has no intention himself of declaring it," said Lombardi, who was on board the plane. "Legislative action in favor of abortion is incompatible with participation in the Eucharist. ... Politicians exclude themselves from Communion."

Pressed further by journalists if the lawmakers were excommunicated, Lombardi reiterated: "No, they exclude themselves from Communion."

Church officials said the pope may have spoken about excommunication thinking that the Mexican City bishops had already issued formal declaration of excommunication for the legislators, which they have not.

Excommunication is the severest penalty the Roman Catholic Church can impose on its members. When someone is excommunicated "his status before the church is that of a stranger," the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia says. In practical terms, that means the excommunicated person is forbidden from receiving the sacraments and participating in public worship.

Church teaching calls for automatic excommunication for anyone who has an abortion. In Mexico City, church officials have said that doctors and nurses who perform the procedure, as well as lawmakers who supported its legalization, also would be excommunicated.

The Mexican politicians who supported the measure shrugged off Benedict's comments Wednesday. "I'm Catholic and I'm going to continue being Catholic even if the church excommunicates me," said leftist Mexico City lawmaker Leticia Quezada. "My conscience is clean."

In the news conference, Benedict also said the exodus of Catholics for evangelical Protestant churches in Latin America was "our biggest worry."

But he said the spread of Protestantism shows a "thirst for God" in the region, and that he intends to lay down a strategy to answer that call when he meets with bishops from throughout Latin America in a once-a-decade meeting in the shrine city of Aparecida near Sao Paulo.

"We have to become more dynamic," he said. Evangelical churches, which the Vatican considers "sects," have attracted millions of Latin American Catholics in recent years.

The Vatican also has promised that Benedict will deliver a tough message on poverty and crime during his five-day visit to Brazil _ the world's most populous Roman Catholic country.

Benedict's predecessor, John Paul II, visited Mexico and addressed Latin American bishops just three months after assuming the papacy. Benedict has waited two years for his first trip to a region where nearly half the world's 1.1 billion Catholics live. But he denied being "Eurocentric" or less concerned about poverty in the developing world than his predecessors.

"I love Latin America. I have traveled there a lot," he told reporters, adding that he is happy the time had come for the trip after focusing on more urgent problems in the Middle East and Africa.

Benedict, who visited Brazil as then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger in 1990, will celebrate several open-air Masses, including a canonization ceremony for Brazil's first native-born saint, and visit a church-run drug and alcohol rehabilitation center.

Many Brazilians are torn between the church's traditional teachings and the pressures of the modern world, and abortion is at the forefront. The procedure is illegal in Brazil except in cases of rape or when the mother's life is in danger. These cases amount to just 2,000 abortions a year, and polls show Brazilians are overwhelmingly opposed to expanding it.

Some 5,000 people _ both Catholics and Protestants _ marched against abortion Tuesday in the capital of Brasilia. Similar marches were held in Mexico.

Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva will meet with the pope in Sao Paulo, but a spokesman said the center-left leader does not plan to bring up abortion or other sensitive issues, such as a government anti-AIDS program that distributes millions of condoms each year.

The pope also faces some opposition from within the Brazilian church, where liberation theology _ which links spiritual growth to human rights _ is still active among thousands of groups working with poor and landless communities.

Benedict said those who follow liberation theology were "mistakenly mixing faith and politics," but stressed that the church has not eased its commitment to social justice.

As John Paul's close aide, Benedict led a campaign against what the Vatican considers a Marxist-inspired movement. The Vatican set the tone for this trip by censuring the Rev. Jon Sobrino, a prominent champion of liberation theology in the region, and condemning some of his works as "erroneous or dangerous."

On another topic dear to the region, Benedict said he believed the beatification process for slain El Salvador Archbishop Oscar Arnulfo Romero was moving ahead. Romero was gunned down on March 24, 1980, a day after calling on the Salvadoran military to halt its repressive tactics.

Benedict called Romero a "great witness to the Catholic faith" and praised him for standing up to dictatorship.

Despite the abortion issue and inroads by evangelical groups, Vatican officials say the church's scorecard in Latin America is not entirely bleak.

A study released in Brazil this week indicates that the flight from the Catholic church stabilized from 2000 to 2003, even though the ranks of Protestants continued to grow.

And on abortion, the Vatican points to countries such as Nicaragua which last year banned the procedure in all cases.


BTW, my parents weren't allowed to receive communion because they were divorced before marrying each other. My attitude as an adult has always been that the best way of handling the Catholic Church is to excommunicate yourself...

[Eva]

In short: the pope makes me puke.

Eva

[Dee]

Huh! The Roman Catholic Church also says to worship idols, a direct contradiction to the Bible.

"Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God." - Leviticus 26:1 (New International Version)

The pope has the audacity to elevate himself to a position of divinity. I don’t know why anyone would listen to a pope, or care what he says. To me he is just another talking head and mad as a hatter.

Talk about the blind leading the blind.

[ponytail]

Like I've said before, I just can't understand why somebody who gets to wear such fabulous drag is always so cranky. Maybe he needs a good spanking.

[DaveM]

Looking at history, it seems fairly clear that the greatest badge of courage one can wear is to be excommunicated from the Catholic Church.

I wonder how Galileo feels about the fact that he's been forgiven?

"ABOARD THE PAPAL PLANE "---hmmmm....a papal air plane....now that brings back fond memories....

[hoops]

somehow i knew this man would become pope...he was very well versed within the Cathoic Church and in the years befo0re poep John Pauls II's death wrotem many books that sold very well among the "faithful' something within me was concerned, i hadn't read the man's books and knew only little bits about his past, but i had that funny feeling. so far, it seems to me that in public speaking, he is the G.w. Bush of the cathlolic church. anyone who has to keep explainging what he meant probabaly shouldn;t have said it in the first place.
I liked John Paul II very much, i don;t belive him to be the "mouthpeice" of God, nor do i belive that he thought he was. He was a humble man and though we had differences of opinion, i have to credit him for his fortitude. and even he would admit that he was unkind from time to time and sorry for it. anyway
peace
hoops

[DaveM]

I have to admit a fondness for John Paul II myself. Sometimes I felt he was trapped by his office, after coming from a background which made him far more worldly than most who have occupied the post (I mean, he was in the Polish resistance during WWII, for crying out loud!). John Paul II was very good at seeing opportunities to use the political power of the Vatican and he did--more than any other individual, I believe he was responsible for the break-up of the Soviet Bloc through his support of Solidarity and a lot of behind the scene diplomacy.

I cannot agree with the times when he took a dogmatic stand on some social issue or other, but you have to admit, he brought the Catholic Church farther forward during his term in office than any of his predecessors that I can think of.

When Benedict was elected, I do recall some speculation that he was intended to be a stuffed shirt who would hold office for a brief time (due to his age) and provide a "cooling off period" after John Paul's rather activist term. I'm not sure that has proven to be the case. I do believe that Benedict is one of the last of the present "old guard" and that his successor will bring some new ideas to the table. Let's face it....someone will have to if the church is to become anything other than an increasingly alienated curiosity.

[Darlene]

I wish I could be excommunicated from the Catholic Church. It was a dumb mistake to join, but I guess I was looking for something but I did not find it there and now I feel stuck.
I also like PJ II. He seem to try so hard to bring Peace to the world. He was so old and tired at the end but he kept on trying. RIP JP.
Pace, Darlene

[lucille]

All I can think of is, beautiful frock but his handbag is on fire.

I want to puke too. All of these old men running male dominated religions with fear, and totally refusing to acknowledge that 51% of most countries populations are women. And even worse, it's all a fairy tale. I get so mad that humanity refuses to evolve, and I will never ever see a religion free world before I die, not to mention true equality. Again I quote/paraphrase Gloria Steinem, if men were able to get pregnant, abortion would not be an issue.

I'll have to go to the new planet which has been discovered. A radio programme here asked what most people would like to see on the new planet. Apart from water, most people wanted a religion-free society!

[Bat]

I think Benedict just doesn't get it, yet. people are going over to the 'sects' because they aren't getting what they want and need from the RCs...freedom and respect. Too much pomp, too many 'thoushaltnots' and not enough down to earth understanding. Bah.
Darlene, you are not stuck. Just quit. I know many recovering Catholics who are very content and happy with their choice. Trust me, you ain't a-gonna go to hell, and you won't have to pay someone to tell you that you are....see? you feel better already.

[Darlene]

Darlene, you are not stuck. Just quit. I know many recovering Catholics who are very content and happy with their choice. Trust me, you ain't a-gonna go to hell, and you won't have to pay someone to tell you that you are....see? you feel better already.
Yes Bat I think I do. I think that every minute of every day I am beginning to feel more and more free.
Religion is, well it sucks! But I do believe in a higher being, a God who loves us all and brings to us a spirit of peace and acceptance.
Peace, Darlene

[Dee]

CAUTION: The following rant is not intended for the fainthearted.

I consider the Roman Catholic Church on the same plane as the God hates fags evangelical churches in the US and Canada. They are not followers of Jesus of Nazareth and are therefore not Christian at all. Both are anti-Christ. They are liars and blind guides. They make evil and they make me puke.

For those who have no faith that God exists, so be it. No problem. But for those who do and look to a church for direction in living that faith and who are met with unrealistic dogma, condemnation, and instructions that are opposite to what Jesus tried to teach I can only think that person will be lead farther and farther away from the greatest source of love there is.

Let's look at some facts.

The Roman Catholic Church (not all who worship there) is about as close to being Christian as a Satanist is. By Christian I mean those who choose to follow the examples Jesus taught and his most important message to his followers:

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

John 13:34-35 (New International Version)

How does instructing / demanding that your congregation not to use condoms in a world of HIV fit in with love please? How does Priests using children as sex objects fit in with love? How does covering up that fact for decades (or longer) fit in with love? They don't. They are the opposites of love and therefore the opposite of what Jesus taught and so are evil in action.

Then there is the matter of hoarding wealth – the gold and jewels, the art and real estate.

Seems they overlooked this little bit of news in the New Testament:

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

"Which ones?" the man inquired.

Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"

"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Matthew 19:16-26

Darlene, I agree with what Bat said. Just walk away. The only power they have over you is the power you give them.

[Irish Beth]

You are picking on Catholics, I wonder why. Is it cool to do so? Aren't all religions more alike than different? No one forces you to become Roman Catholic - if you don't like it leave. Most know the rules - if they upset you pick one of those other million religions.

Maybe I do not agree with this Pope, so.........I don't agree with many people..........that doesen't make me better than them, smarter, wiser, or right. I have two positions on the seemingly endless fight over abortion. I am a Roman Catholic and if I get an abortion, I have committed a mortal sin. I am also an American and believe, just as strongly, if you get an abortion it is your decision - this country is built on freedom - if you don't like something, anything, you are free to give your opinion and make your own choices. They may be unpopular choices, but they are yours and, unless they are illegal, make the choices you want.

It may be convenient to be a "Cafeteria" Roman Catholic picking and choosing what rules of the church you will or won't follow..........that is what most Americans do. We are too used to democracy to follow a Pope, any Pope, who is by definition an autocrat. Roman Catholics are told that it is a sin to go to communion if you are divorced and have not gotten an annullment. Them's the plain old rules, you don't like them - don't follow them, but don't howl in protest cause you feel mistreated, it is pretty hard to pretend you did not know the rule when you got married.

Sure I have been impressed by some Popes, I have been impressed by some Presidents, scientists, writers, etc. but whether or not I like them doesn't mean I should destroy all of their chosen professions because there are some I don't like.

I think it is horribly wrong to campare the church and its members to Satan. Just because you don't like or believe what they do and stand for is no reason to slam them.

Our intolerance for people who believe differently than we do is what has led us to where we are today. Do you ever leave your front door unlocked? Pick up a hitchiker? How can we ever work together if we are afraid of one another, hate each other's differences, and believe everything would be fine if everyone did and said and acted the way we liked?

Being a Roman Catholic has always been challenge, never more so than now, Catholics have rules for everything. You never have to ponder if you are right or wrong, the church pretty much tells you. But no one will force you to be a member or believe as they do.

Sorry to go on for so long, but at my confirmation I agreed to be a "Defender of the Faith" and I try to take my promises seriously. You may think I don't live in reality or am badly misinformed. Go ahead. I don't need your stamp of approval on my life, and I promise to let you live your own life and make your own choices.

But please just show a little respect for other people and don't compare them to satanists.

[Dee]

IB,

While I respect your position, it is also clear (to me) that Catholic Church dogma is un-Christian in many of its instructions and actions. I gave a few examples that I think prove that out.

Let's look at some other facts. What I wrote was:

"The Roman Catholic Church (not all who worship there) is about as close to being Christian as a Satanist is. By Christian I mean those who choose to follow the examples Jesus taught . . . " I have friends who are Catholic I might add, and they agree with my observations.

The Catholic Church does not do this by living in a dangerous bubble on non realism on some issues. Yes, freedom to worship where one chooses is important, but blindly following religious instruction without objectivity is equally so.

I am not challenging your personal choices here, but I do prefer sticking to facts. If that looks to you like I'm picking on Catholics per se, there is nothing I can do about that.

[Stephen]

Beth, I suppose I come close to (or am) one of those 'cafeteria' Catholics, but I am not about to let policy disagreements get between me and my church. And it is our church, after all, not the pope's.

[Gandalf]

ponytail> Maybe he needs a good spanking.
Mmmm, now there's an idea!

{Gandalf shakes off the thought.}

Uh, sorry. Particularly to the Catholics on this board. {Insert evil grin here}

Irish Beth> Our intolerance for people who believe differently than we do is what has led us to where we are today.

Egg-zactly!

Irish Beth:
Being a Roman Catholic has always been challenge, never more so than now, Catholics have rules for everything. You never have to ponder if you are right or wrong, the church pretty much tells you. But no one will force you to be a member or believe as they do.

I'm sure, and I am sincerely glad that this works for you, and for so many millions of others, and that it gives you peace, joy, love, and structure.

I honestly wish I could believe (I would feel so much more secure) but I simply don't believe, I can't force myself to, and I won't pretend any more. Or can't pretend any more, I'm not sure which is more accurate.

Irish Beth:
I don't need your stamp of approval on my life, and I promise to let you live your own life and make your own choices.

Yup. That's about the best we humans can do, I think.

I do not mean any disrespect to any of you, but I have to agree with Dee and Eva, and I share their strong opinions.

I absolutely see and admit that organized religion had been a force for good in this world.

But the practice of it, and its leadership, have brought great harm and evil to the world, and led its more gullible followers into awful acts.

And I do not just mean Catholics. I mean every organized religion. I remember that (what was it? 20 years ago or more?) some "Radical Buddhists" (now there's a concept for ya!) poisoned some restaurant food for their cause.

I have come to believe that us humans are genetically programmed to hate, fear, and kill each other. The reasons cited are merely excuses. If we didn't have a Pope or any organized religion at all, it would simply be something else we fought over.

But I am still saddened by the actions of those whom I consider to be false prophets leading people astray. Beth, if you believe the Pope to be a true prophet I absolutely respect your beliefs and your right to have them.

But, by your beliefs, I will be punished unceasingly for all of eternity with horrors too great for my imagination because I am unable to force myself to believe what I honestly do not believe. There will be mercy and no escape if I die without accepting what the Pope says is mandatory.

Can you see where some of us might be a little bothered by that? Can you look at it from our viewpoint for a minute and see how personal and awful that might seem to us?

Peace to all!

[Dee]

But I am still saddened by the actions of those whom I consider to be false prophets leading people astray.

Gandalf,

That is exactly my beef with so-called leaders in any life arena be it in religion or politics. People who hold positions of power over others have a gigantic responsibility in my mind, and more often than not that part seems of little importance.

I have learned to be questioning of anyone who tries to tell me they know the mind of God. If humans could do that, they would be gods and not mere mortals.

I’m sure there are some good acts done by people of faith, in fact I know so. But when I think of how the Jesuit priests came to the Americas and tormented and murdered the native population it makes want to vomit. They were so intent on saving the souls of the “barbarians” that they ended up murdering many of them one way or another.

Then there is this (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2005/05/26/victimcompensation0526.html) further story of evil acts on top of all that.

No, I do not respect anyone who could cause or allow any of those things to happen, especially in the name of God.

[Gandalf]

And an important one! :-)

> There will be mercy and no escape if I die without accepting what the Pope says is mandatory.

Obviously should have been
There will be no mercy and no escape if I die without accepting what the Pope says is mandatory.

Ouchies!

[Irish Beth]

Dee,

According to you, because I am Catholic I am not Christian. I find that an impossibly rude thing to say. Regardless of what I thought your beliefs were, I would not stoop to name calling. But if name calling makes you feel better, brighter, and more "in tune" with what religions can and can't do then I guess asking for a little respect is way too much for you to give.

Of course the church is flawed, it is run by humans. Find me an institution that isn't. You think pedophile priests are bad, and they are. All priests are not pedophiles and not all pedophiles are priests. I am sure no other person of a different faith has ever used religion as a way to lure children and make parents fell they are trustworthy and "Christian"

Obviously you cannot be a Christian as I must not be one. You are not a stellar example of living as Jesus would, you have fallen from his path by: namecalling, not loving your neighbor as thyself, judging not lest you be judged, etc.

If being Catholic is such a horrific thing, at least I am glad I am in the company of Mother Theresa, the nun portrayed in "Dead Man Walking" (who was based on a real person), St. Francis of Assisi, John F. Kennedy, Robert F. Kennedy (who carried his rosary beads every day),Pope John the XXIII, the Cardinals who fought comunisim, the thousands of Roman Catholics who risked their lives saving Jewish children (and many adults) from the Holocaust, etc.

Gandalf,

According to my beliefs, you say you will suffer in God's eyes. Not true. My beliefs are mine and should have no affect on you. Seventh day Adventists, Jehova's witnesses, and many others and their organizations believe I am doomed to hell because I'm Catholic. What effect does that have on me as a person or on me as a Roman Catholic? None.

I think I have a few good ideas about what God wants, I'm secure enough in that knowledge to know I am trying the best that I can. I think you should feel that way too.

Do I believe God is going to ask to see anyone's Roman Catholic membership card when they die, of course not. Heaven is open to all. Being Roman Catholic is what lends form and structure to my beliefs on this earth.

I have never claimed the Roman Catholic church is perfect, I have never claimed that this particular Pope is some kind of phrophet. I have never said that my beliefs should be held by all, I have never said that if you believe in certain faiths you are following false profits. All I am saying is could people please respect my rights to my faith without slamming it. Feel free to say or discuss whatever issues or tennents you want - there is no need to call names or insult beliefs.

[ponytail]

Beth, I think people do respect your right to your faith, but "not slamming it" is a separate thing. People have the right to slam the Catholic Church. If they do so, it doesn't mean they are slamming you as an individual. A couple of times Dee has noted that he isn't directing his remarks at individual Catholics but at the Church as an institution.

I was brought up Catholic, but could not in conscience stay in the Church because I vehemently take issue with many of its policies -- among them the notion that the Pope is infallible -- and I don't believe that they mediate between God and the human race (I don't believe any religion does). I have no problem in taking this position and simultaneously admitting that the Church does do some good through its charity work, among other things. I hope the next Pope is more reasonable and humane than Benedict.

But if I want to express my objections to the Church as an institution -- or to satirize or even ridicule things about it that I find absurd -- I do have a right to do that. If it angers or offends you, I'm sorry about that. There's a fine line between following good etiquette and actually having to censor yourself in a discussion because you might make someone else uncomfortable, and I think this conversation is right on that line.

[Irish Beth]

Obviously respect is not available here On to other threads............

[Dee]

Beth, I think people do respect your right to your faith, but "not slamming it" is a separate thing. People have the right to slam the Catholic Church. If they do so, it doesn't mean they are slamming you as an individual. A couple of times Dee has noted that he isn't directing his remarks at individual Catholics but at the Church as an institution.

I did and with purpose, Jack. Thank you for noticing.

Beth,

If you could set aside your defence of the church for a moment, you might see that as well, instead of interpreting what I wrote as what you took from it.

I never claimed to be a perfect follower of Jesus of Nazareth’s attempted teachings. I’m not sure how you got that idea. Nor did I claim to be better than anyone. This thread is about the Pope, not you or I or our beliefs or lack of beliefs. Believe me when I tell you it’s not personal, but thanks for your assessment of me anyway.

The facts I posted are just a few examples of the insidiousness of Roman Catholic Church dogma, which the Pope imparts to his followers. Facts don’t lie.

[Stephen]

There is one thing I have always believed: organized religion can be one of the best counter-balances to governmental tyranny. Of course, when the two work hand in hand, it makes matters all the worse. The one great thing the Roman church did (in my opinion) is remain independent of government control through much of its existence, unlike the Christian church in the Byzantine world (whether the Emperor or Pope would control the church was the real reason for schism between the East and West, not any doctrinal conflicts).

The Roman church did become a temporal power itself; that was an inevitability if it were to remain independent. And, in the long run, I feel that in its independence lie the roots of separation of religion and state and of freedom of religion. Not that very many popes were ever big proponents of freedom of religion! :D

So, I remain a practicing Catholic. I disagree with many of its policies but tend to agree with most of the root doctrinal traditions. I like the idea of 'one' church encompassing all Christianity (and, I would hope, their varied beliefs). Most importantly, I recognize that it can be an instrument of social progress. I don't worry about Benedict, who is a transitional figure. Things did swing to the right under JPII and they will swing back.

After all, I don't approve of the policies of George Bush, but I haven't stopped being an American. Yet, anyway...

[Dee]

Most importantly, I recognize that it can be an instrument of social progress.

I have witnessed that personally Stephen through some Catholic friends of mine. Specifically, they and some members of their church sat as a board of directors that helped set up some homes for previously institutionalised disabled adults. Then tragically years later the government got involved and turned what was a fine little community into just another overly regulated group home type place.

[Bat]

Here is an article I found by a Rabbi, which, I think, puts everything into perspective:

Religion Is Made Up
By Rabbi Rami Shapiro

Religion is made up; all religion, not just other people's religions.

Religion is made up. God didn't choose the Jews, have a baby, or ask
Mohammed to recite.

Religion is made up, but Reality is not. Yet religion trumps Reality in the
hearts and minds of millions, maybe billions of people.

Religion is made up, but Truth is not. Yet religion blasphemes Truth with
self-serving tales of power and exploitation.

Religion is made up. Once you know this it is hard to be religious. You just
can't justify all the rules and ruckus. I know because I keep trying. I keep
telling myself religion matters. But it doesn't.

You know what matters? Love matters. Compassion matters. Justice matters.
Peace matters. Humility matters. Nature matters. Truth matters. Reality
matters. You matter.

So what do I do when I know religion is made up? First I remember that all
philosophy and literature is made up as well. Second I remember that just
because Plato invented the dialogues of Socrates, and Shakespeare invented
Hamlet and Lear doesn't mean that Socrates, Hamlet, and Lear don't speak
Truth. Fiction may preclude fact, but in no way does it obscure Truth.

Religion is made up. At its best its stories have the potential to capture
our imagination and feed our souls by revealing the best to which we humans
can aspire. At its worst it can strip us of our humanity and invite us to
make real the darkest fantasies we can conjure. Torah, Gospels, Qur'an, and
Gita contain insights of such power, grandeur and wisdom that we say them
come from God. They also contain the obscenely violent, misogynist, and
xenophobic rants of fearful frightened men climbing to power over the dead
bodies of their enemies.

We can't free religion of either genius or madness, but we can free
ourselves from mistaking them both for the Word of God. How? By realizing
that religion is made up. No one goes to war over the meaning of Hamlet. No
one kills another to decide whom Shakespeare loved best.

If we admit that religion is made up we can enjoy it without being abused by
it. If we admit that religion is made up we can honor myth without having to
flatten it into fact. If we admit that religion is made up we can shake off
the fear and violence it sanctions and address its one timeless message: do
justly, love mercy, and walk humbly.

-------

http://www.rabbirami.com/about.html
http://web.mac.com/rabbirami/iWeb/Rabbi%20Rami/Home.html

Don't let human fear masquerade as divine command.

----------------------------------------------------------

Bible truths ---
http://revcom.us/a/087/bible-horror-en.html
http://revcom.us/a/088/bible-horror-pt2-en.html

[DaveM]

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize humankind. And, for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel ... It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime. He takes up the trade of a priest for the sake of gain, and, in order to qualify himself for that trade, he begins with perjury. Can we conceive anything more destructive to morality than this? ... He despises the choicest gift of God to man, the GIFT OF REASON; and having endeavoured to force upon himself the belief of a system against which reason revolts, he ungratefully calls it human reason ... We ought to feel shame at calling such paltry stories the word of God ... when I see throughout the greatest part of this book scarcely anything but a history of the grossest vices, and a collection of the most paltry and contemptible tales, I cannot dishonour my Creator by calling it by his name ... The forgery of letters has been such a common practice in the world, that the probability is at least equal, whether they are genuine or forged ... That she could fabricate writings is certain, because she could write; and the composition of the writings in question, is of that kind that anybody might do it; and that she did fabricate them is not more inconsistent with probability, than that she should tell us, as she has done, that she could and did work miracles ... they decided by vote which of the books out of the collection they had made, should be the WORD OF GOD. Had they voted otherwise, all the people since calling themselves Christians had believed otherwise; for the belief of the one comes from the vote of the other ... THE WORD OF GOD IS THE CREATION WE BEHOLD: And it is in this word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaks universally to humanity ... It is only in the CREATION that all our ideas and conceptions of a word of God can unite. The Creation speaks an universal language, independently of human speech or human language, multiplied and various as they be. It is an ever existing original, which every person can read. It cannot be forged; it cannot be counterfeited; it cannot be lost; it cannot be altered; it cannot be suppressed. It does not depend upon the will of a man whether it shall be published or not; it publishes itself from one end of the earth to the other. It preaches to all nations and to all worlds; and this word of God reveals to humanity all that is necessary for man to know of God ... As to the theology that is now studied in its place, it is the study of human opinions and of human fancies concerning God. It is not the study of God himself in the works that he has made, but in the works or writings that man has made ... There are also many who have been so enthusiastically enraptured by what they conceived to be the infinite love of God to man, in making a sacrifice of himself, that the vehemence of the idea has forbidden and deterred them from examining into the absurdity and profaneness of the story ... Having made an insurrection and a battle in heaven, in which none of the combatants could be either killed or wounded -- put Satan into the pit -- let him out again -- given him a triumph over the whole creation -- damned all mankind by the eating of an apple, there Christian mythologists bring the two ends of their fable together. They represent this virtuous and amiable man, Jesus Christ, to be at once both God and man, and also the Son of God, celestially begotten, on purpose to be sacrificed, because they say that Eve in her longing had eaten an apple ... After his fall, Satan becomes, by their account, omnipresent. He exists everywhere, and at the same time. He occupies the whole immensity of space ... Not content with this deification of Satan, they represent him as defeating by stratagem, in the shape of an animal of the creation, all the power and wisdom of the Almighty. They represent him as having compelled the Almighty to the direct necessity either of surrendering the whole of the creation to the government and sovereignty of this Satan, or of capitulating for its redemption by coming down upon earth, and exhibiting himself upon a cross in the shape of a man ... the case can only be referred to the internal evidence which the thing carries of itself; and this affords a very strong presumption of its being a fabrication. For the internal evidence is, that the theory or doctrine of redemption has for its basis an idea of pecuniary justice, and not that of moral justice ... If I owe a person money, and cannot pay him, and he threatens to put me in prison, another person can take the debt upon himself, and pay it for me. But if I have committed a crime, every circumstance of the case is changed. Moral justice cannot take the innocent for the guilty even if the innocent would offer itself. To suppose justice to do this, is to destroy the principle of its existence, which is the thing itself (justice). It is then no longer justice. It is indiscriminate revenge ... This single reflection will show that the doctrine of redemption is founded on a mere pecuniary idea corresponding to that of a debt which another person might pay; and as this pecuniary idea corresponds again with the system of second redemptions, obtained through the means of money given to the church for pardons, the probability is that the same persons fabricated both the one and the other of those theories; and that, in truth, there is no such thing as redemption; that it is fabulous; and that humanity stands in the same relative condition with their Maker as they ever did." --Thomas Paine, The Age Of Reason.

[Bat]

And as for CREATION, read Richard Dawkins' "The Ancestor's Tale".

[Darlene]

What a lession in those two readings but it all comes down to this! This is what is important.
Peace, Darlene


A Quote by: Rabbi Rami Shapiro-from "Religion Is Made Up"
You know what matters? Love matters. Compassion matters. Justice matters.
Peace matters. Humility matters. Nature matters. Truth matters. Reality
matters. You matter.

[DaveM]

"Damnation is the start of your morality, destruction is its purpose, means and end. Your code begins by damning man as evil, then demands that he practice a good which it defines as impossible for him to practice. It demands, as his first proof of virtue, that he accepts his own depravity without proof. It demands that he start, not with a standard of value, but with a standard of evil, which is himself, by means of which he is then to define the good: the good is that which he is not.

It does not matter who then becomes the profiteer on his renounced glory and tormented soul, a mystic God with some incomprehensible design or any passer-by whose rotting sores are held as some explicable claim upon him - it does not matter, the good is not for him to understand, his duty is to crawl through years of penance, atoning for the guilt of his existence to any stray collector of unintelligible debts, his only concept of a value is a zero: the good is that which is non-man.

The name of this monstrous absurdity is Original Sin.

A sin without volition is a slap at morality and an insolent contradiction in terms: that which is outside the possibility of choice is outside the province of morality. If man is evil by birth, he has no will, no power to change it; if he has no will, he can be neither good nor evil; a robot is amoral. To hold, as man's sin, a fact not open to his choice is a mockery of morality. To hold man's nature as his sin is a mockery of nature. To punish him for a crime he committed before he was born is a mockery of justice. To hold him guilty in a matter where no innocence exists is a mockery of reason. To destroy morality, nature, justice and reason by means of a single concept is a feat of evil hardly to be matched. Yet that is the root of your code.

Do not hide behind the cowardly evasion that man is born with free will, but with a 'tendency' to evil. A free will saddled with a tendency is like a game with loaded dice. It forces man to struggle through the effort of playing, to bear responsibility and pay for the game, but the decision is weighted in favor of a tendency that he had no power to escape. If the tendency is of his choice, he cannot possess it at birth; if it is not of his choice, his will is not free.

What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call his Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge - he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil - he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor - he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire - he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy - all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man's fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was - that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love - he was not man.

Man's fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he's man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives. They call it a morality of mercy and a doctrine of love for man." --Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged.

[ponytail]

Thanks for posting the above readings, everyone -- and Bat, thanks especially for "Religion Is Made Up." I shared it with several of my fellow UUs and they all really appreciated it. I suspect it'll end up being used as a reading at one of our services!

[Darlene]

Originally posted by Irish Beth:
Being a Roman Catholic has always been challenge, never more so than now, Catholics have rules for everything. You never have to ponder if you are right or wrong, the church pretty much tells you. But no one will force you to be a member or believe as they do.

You know I was reading through all the posts on this thread and the above quote scares me. As a recovering Catholic it is really hard to leave the church because they tell you that once a Catholic always a Catholic. If you don't follow the teachings you are just a bad Catholic and they have enough of those. It really gets to you to be a "bad anything".
Peace, Darlene

[DaveM]

The majority of highly dogmatic religious beliefs appear, if examined as a list of symptoms, to be the only form of paranoid delusion which can be more or less predictably acquired, given sufficient exposure.

Resistance to treatment tends to be pretty high as well. And symptoms tend to persist even after the primary disorder has been attended to.

[Bat]

Well said, DaveM!
I've been a Methodist, an Episcopalian, and I've read the Book of Mormon, the Koran and the Bible (twice! double eek!), and I am very proud to be a very Bad Religious Person...it feels so good to be completely free from castigation and threat of repercussion from an ephemeral source.
Talk about emancipation...that is IT!
My Bad, and loving it!

[Dee]

As a recovering Catholic it is really hard to leave the church because they tell you that once a Catholic always a Catholic.

Darlene,

That's just a psychological trap the RC church relies on to keep you under their thumb. Guilt trips seem to be their specialty. But remember, religion is a man-made thing with man-made rules. That seems opposite of what Jesus taught and knowing the difference in no way makes you a “bad” person. So relax.

According to the records about what Jesus said:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Matthew 7:21-23 (New International Version)