Quote

[Annie's Dad]

Topic Deleted By AD.

[Rkitko]

You know, I'd be interested to learn the context of this quote. And what the "..." is in place of, if anything. I found the quote plastered all over the internet, but not one can attribute a source, so I can't go searching for a specific document or interview where she said this.

But... lobotomy scar? I think that's a bit harsh. Granted, the logic doesn't seem like something I'd hold true (thought police frighten me, and the last part of the quote makes no sense). Though I do support gun registration, control, and reinstating the Federal Assault Weapons Ban. It could be she misspoke, which is why I'd like to know more about the context. Just wish I could find it!

On that note, time for a new signature. Goodbye "Columnated Ruins Domino" and hello Moxy Fruvous lyric.

[Annie's Dad]

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[DaveM]

I'd like to know the source myself. Granted, there are rabid anti-gun people out there, but when organizations have been known to fabricate quotations like Michael Dukakis' "I intend to disarm this state" (run on the cover of the "American Rifleman"--the NRA knows better than that, surely) and Sarah Brady's "handgun control is necessary to attain our goal of a socialist America" (or words to that effect), I have to take such words with a grain of salt.

To be sure, there are plenty of people in high positions who believe they can predict who will commit crimes and like to propose the idea of locking such people up in advance (hey, it's worked for every dictator, hasn't it?). Notably, Dr. E. Fuller Torrey, President of the National Institute for Mental Health, stated a few years ago that since 5% of murders are committed by insane people, that doctors should be given broader authority to indefinitely lock up anyone they might suspect of possibly having the capacity to commit a crime. The 95% of murders apparently committed by "normal" people ar apparently of no concern to him.

Dr. Torrey, conversely, believes that mental illness is caused by "brain viruses", a belief which has no empirical evidence to support it. No one has ever seen, isolated, or identified a "brain virus" such as he describes, but if one of his adherents believes you have been "infected", he'd like them to have the authority to put you under lock and key without charge, trial, or right to appeal.

Given that there are people like Dr. Torrey in positions of power, I do not find it troubling at all that some people would prefer to arm themselves against the possibility of a confrontation with his minions. Far more troubling is the reality that people like him are in positions of power and that some take his word as gospel. And you can bet that when they go out to haul in a "pre-criminal", they carry guns.

[Rkitko]

Is this power feminism? Ms. Arlington: May 1994.Vol.4, Iss. 6; pg. 36, 2 pgs.

No quote to be found... (I love having access to pdf files of thousands of publications.) "Is this power feminism?" only introduced two larger articles in that issue, neither of which contained the above quote or mentioned Mary Ann Carlson's name. Fascinating reading, though.

Got another source I could try to find the quote in?

[Annie's Dad]

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[Rkitko]

No problem, Annie's Dad :) I'm just trying to track down as much info as I can before I make a judgement call. I couldn't find much by googling, and most hits that came up were from message board posts. I have a feeling we may be searching for a quote from an interview or something she said once that may not be a direct quote. This meme, however, has certainly gotten around the interweb.

[Annie's Dad]

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[DaveM]

If the dates and other attributes are accurate, this person was a state legislator (hardly a national policymaker) who said this 18 years ago and has been out of office for 12.

Hardly seems like anything to be concerned about.

[Annie's Dad]

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[Amy in Vermont]

Before you go bashing people, you should know about whom you are speaking.

Mary Ann Carlson

Carlson, Mary Ann, of Arlington, Bennington County. Democrat, was born in Palo Alto, California on January 22, 1944 and became resident of present town in June, 1978. Occupation: innkeeper. Co-owner and operator of West Mountain Inn, Arlington, Vermont. She was educated in elementary schools in Palo Alto, California, graduated from Notre Dame High School, Belmont, California; Marquette University, Milwaukee, Wisconsin (B.A., 1965). She has thirty-two graduate credits toward M.A., in special education, Fordham University (1977) and has a master’s degree in counseling and psychology, Lesley College, Cambridge, Massachusetts, (1991). She is married to Wesley H. Carlson, and they have three daughters and two sons. She serves on the Vermont Loan Fund Board; Vermont Interactive Television Coordinating Council; Governor’s Blue ribbon Commission on Educational and Municipal Financing Reform: Judicial Nominating Board. Member of: Arlington Townscape; Project Against Violent Encounters; Vermont Business Association for Social Responsibility; VT’s State Business and Professional Women; Chambers of Commerce of Arlington, Bennington and Manchester; VT, National Organization of Women Honored with awards from Southern Vermont College, Honorary Doctor of Laws; United Counseling Service, Cleveland E. and Phyllis B. Dodge Award; Bennington County and State of Vermont Business and Professional Woman of the Year Award; Vermont Law Income Advocacy Council, certificate of appreciation. http://www.vermontfolklifecenter.org/images/multimedia/radio/golden-dome/carlson.jpg
Mary Ann Carlson
Member of the Senate: 1989-90, 1991-92 (Democratic leader), and 1993-94.

[Annie's Dad]

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[aabram]

Dad, dad..... calm down. We in Edinburgh and the rest of the UK have lived without hand guns for years and are clamping down on air rifles now, and yet, the public sale of fireworks is STILL PERMITTED. It hasn't done us any harm, and has stopped alot of the crime that otherwise would have happened. Children getting shot for instance. BUT they still allow fireworks. That means there is still work to be done, and we need to do it FAST... Luv Annie x

[RedjackRyan]

Annabelle, i respectfully submit that the crime statistics do not bear out that fact. http://www.upmystreet.com/local/police-crime/figures/l/Edinburgh.html While it is true there are few crimes committed with firearms, the averages for Edinburgh as opposed to the rest of scotland are higher in several crime categories.. specifically Petty Crimes, Burglaries, and general theft.

While i concede that keeping weapons out of the hands of those who would do harm with them is a worthy goal, i also submit that criminals are less likely to target armed citizens for crimes.

just my opinion.

[aabram]

Well you're entitled to your opinion, Ben, but I wasn't necessarily talking about Edinburgh.........

[Wildflower Fever]

The last Republican that was worth a **** was Barry Goldwater, who last ran for office before I was born. Since Nixon, it's been all downhill. I'm tired of hearing about how weak and liberal people like Nancy Pelosi are, and I'm glad to give her a chance after that fat sausage eating Denny Hastert showed no attempt at ethical oversight. One good thing the Repubs have taught "us" is it's OK to fight, and thank god we'll be doing that for now on, "nanny-state" or no. And **** trickle-down economics.:p

[Annie's Dad]

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[DaveM]

From The St. Paul Pioneer Press, 11/14/2006:

A Ramsey County jury convicted a Minneapolis police officer today of obstructing legal process and possessing a gun while intoxicated, but acquitted him on a domestic violence charge.

The jury's verdict means Matthew Francis Segulia will be able to keep his job, his defense attorney said. All three charges were misdemeanors, but a domestic violence conviction could have meant that Segulia could not legally carry a gun.

"The correct verdict was found on the domestic assault," said defense attorney Eileen Bergmann. "We're pleased."

Ramsey County District Judge Thomas Mott will sentence Segulia on the two convictions in January.

The charges stemmed from an incident Nov. 18, 2005, in St. Paul. Two St. Paul plainclothes officers were driving through the Dayton's Bluff neighborhood when they saw Segulia shove his ex-girlfriend in her driveway, causing her to fall.

The officers approached Segulia as he started to get into his pickup truck. Segulia did not follow the officers' instructions, according to police. Instead, he identified himself as a Minneapolis officer and began to struggle.

St. Paul officers used a stun gun on Segulia as he reached for his fanny pack. St. Paul officers later discovered a loaded handgun in Segulia's pack. Segulia had a blood-alcohol content of 0.21 percent at the time of his arrest, according to police.
.............................

Segulia was charged with domestic assault in February 2005 against (the ex-girlfriend) for a separate incident at his home but prosecutors dismissed the charges when he claimed self-defense.

Segulia was convicted of drunken driving in 1995.

Bergmann said Segulia remains on the Minneapolis police force.

"He's a great cop, " Bergmann said. "That's where he should be."


How many of you folks out there want this guy "serving and protecting" you? Can I see a show of hands?

[Annie's Dad]

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[Randy & Betty in Pa]

Her CV doesn't impress me at all after her elitest, nanny-state quote. She is a clone of the worst kind. Fortunately, she is no longer in power. But, others like her are.


Annies Dad...

Obviously little impresses you about the achievements of others. You just call them names and move on... Its an absolute shame that you are so busy trying to impress others with your wit and wisdom that you lack the ability to hear what others have to say when they disagree with your "SPIN"...

R from Pa.

[paularoid]

Annies Dad...

Obviously little impresses you about the achievements of others. You just call them names and move on... Its an absolute shame that you are so busy trying to impress others with your wit and wisdom that you lack the ability to hear what others have to say when they disagree with your "SPIN"...

R from Pa.
That's a tried and true, well known and recognized, conservative politicians tactic that's been employed since whenever.....

Get on that soapbox, jump up and down, wave that flag higher and faster (with the one hand while they stab you in the back with the other), point at somewhere/someone else drawing all attention to the "pointee" rather than the real cause,...... and then leave/ignore the "real" concern. Hit fast and hit HARD and then leave or ignore the original point(s). I've seen it all too often.

[Annie's Dad]

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[Randy & Betty in Pa]

Well Chris,

That said perhaps if you could discuss issues without the name calling and condescending manner in which you often refer to people you might learn something and who knows, perhaps even earn or develope a level of friendship and respect and who knows if you listened to some here you might even learn something. For a very long time we have been able to discuss issues without the name calling here... You haven't noticed that?

best

R, from Pa

[Rkitko]

Well Chris,

That said perhaps if you could discuss issues without the name calling and condescending manner in which you often refer to people you might learn something and who knows, perhaps even earn or develope a level of friendship and respect and who knows if you listened to some here you might even learn something. For a very long time we have been able to discuss issues without the name calling here... You haven't noticed that?

best

R, from Pa
I seem to remember strongly disagreeing with you on a few occassions, Randy ;) But I don't think we dragged up any mud. Though it might have been fun to create some political-like mud ads: *Deep voice announcer* "Randy PA likes to point the blame at Redjack; scapegoating any chance he gets. And yet, in a fourth-grade essay, Randy PA revealed that he aspired to one day become a pirate. Do you want Randy at the helm? Paid for by the People Who Like Asparagus" :D All in good fun, Randy. I respects ya. Keep it light, people. We're all family here.

[Wildflower Fever]

I agree it's a long used conservative tactic. Nearly all my local races in MN this November featured Repub ads that were predominantly attack ridden and fact-lacking, while most Dem's ads were positive and about change. My favorite was this June Cleaver lunatic Michelle Bachmann whom I'm ashamed to say won. Her ads always started with "Patty Wetterling, just another liberal politician" (Patty Wetterling (D) was her opponent for right-wing nutjob Mark Kennedy's House Seat.), and always focused on taxes. She won on pure negativity and fearmongering, I believe, and this a woman who said "there is no substantial evidence for global warming" and "there is no substantial evidence to support the theory of evolution". And then of course it's the same old "we need a law defining marriage as between a man and a woman" thing. That said, the core frustration for me is that most of the issues that Republican supporters mandate for, like gun rights, anti-abortion, anti-stem cell, etc., won't go in action (thank goodness, and Happy Holidays) because the neocon only, and I mean only cares about money. This current version of the Republican party truly only represents the top 1% of U.S. earners, so to get the other 50%, you gotta' pull some wool, my friends. The three G's, "Guns, Gays, and God, oh my!" That's the Republican plan for loyalty.

[Annie's Dad]

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[Annie's Dad]

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[Randy & Betty in Pa]

Chris...

I guess the world is just out of step with you.

R

[Annie's Dad]

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[Wildflower Fever]

OK, one more thing. For the LAST TIME, I'M NOT A REPUBLICAN OR CONSERVATIVE!!!

I've said it several times before that I support stem-cell research, I'm pro-gay marriage, I'm pro-choice, I believe in evolution and I'M AN ATHIEST! All big time NO-NOs for those groups.

As far as it all comes down to money, we're poor. That's why we do our own "dirty work" hunting our own meat and growing and canning our own fruit and veg. Please quit lumping me in with either of the above groups. You all hate labels, so do I.

And who's name-calling now?

Chris

Chris, believe it or not my post wasn't referring directly to you, but in fact was inspired by key points in this thread from persons of differing perspectives. Even with that said, you do come off a bit republican, or at least you might enjoy jabbing liberals a bit? There does seem to a bit a little animosity from you, and if I had to pick a political persuasion you appear to abhor, it would have to lean further left than right. Just my opinion.:p

[pulmike]

This isn’t my place, but it’s in my neighborhood and I come here with good intentions, for peaceful reasons. Lately when I get here what I find is that some of you are busy laying your otherwise capable and creative hands on the biggest piles of vitriol and animosity you can find and flinging them at each other, with a degree of impudence. Each of you knows that your target(s) are, ideologically speaking, way too far away for you to score a hit; ditto for you to be hit yourself. You will not persuade others to your views by this means. I had hoped you would run short of vitriol to fling before now, but alas, no.

Nobody has asked me to speak for them, so this is just me: I wish you guys wouldn’t do this here. It makes me uncomfortable. It’s quite possible it makes our hosts uncomfortable. Ill will and hurt feelings and lost tempers are not what this place is about. Please stop this. I’m asking politely. I’d like to take a peaceful stroll around this place without having to duck or watch where I step.

pulmike

[Annie's Dad]

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[paularoid]

Stated right there at the entrance to "The Zoo":


The rough bar down the street from the coffee house. The only things prohibited are solicitiation, and discussion of beastiality or pedophilia. Unmoderated. Don't come crying to us if your feelings get hurt. We warned you.

[DaveM]

I would add, in case there has been any confusion, that none of my remarks here are intended to be personal and are certainly not "hurled" at anyone. They're just my opinions, stated as best I can in limited space, and the last person I'd have any quarrel with is anyone else who cares to express their own. These days, ideas are beginning to become dangerous things, and I applaud anyone who, regardless of their beliefs, refuses to remain silent.

"I may not approve of what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it".

[Dee]

Nobody has asked me to speak for them, so this is just me: I wish you guys wouldn’t do this here. It makes me uncomfortable. It’s quite possible it makes our hosts uncomfortable. Ill will and hurt feelings and lost tempers are not what this place is about. Please stop this. I’m asking politely. I’d like to take a peaceful stroll around this place without having to duck or watch where I step.

pulmike

Ditto to that, Mike!

I have basically been ignoring the threads like this one that seem to keep creeping onto the message board lately, mostly because I find them an embarrassment.

Opinions are not facts. Arguments are not discussions. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but to spam a message forum repeatedly with one's own opinions is just inconsiderate and bad Netiquette (http://www.sofweb.vic.edu.au/internet/netiquet.htm).

Despite what you might hear about the net being anarchic, in fact there are rules. The rules are simply guidelines to make net life more pleasant for everyone. They attempt to take into account the fact that everyone uses the net in different ways and for different purposes, and that in order to accommodate the millions of people who use the net regularly, some guidance for acceptable use is necessary.

It seems some folks take the terms of The Zoo as a sign to go nuts in public, and it's embarrassing when they call themselves Janis Ian fans then behave this way. "Bullies compensate for their weakness with aggression. What some people mistakenly see as "psychological strength" is really an aggressive determination to violate other people's boundaries with no respect, no consideration of others, no thought of consequence, and an endless fund of specious excuses and rationalisations for their aggression."

Like that Special Olympics poster Janis posted here once said:

Arguing on the Internet is like a race in the Special Olympics.

Even if you win, you're still retarded.

Edited to add an afterthought:

Janis posted previously that these forums are ours to make of what we will. Arguing (about any topic) under the guise of being Janis Ian fans isn’t really my understanding of what they are here for, so I have to wonder why people who want to squabble and fling mud don’t do that on a site designed for that purpose?

To me the important thing here isn’t the topic, but rather the way people behave toward each another.

My 2 cents. Carry on.

[RedjackRyan]

The ability to discuss without argueing is a skill that does seem to be in short supply these days. I do try (Not always successfully) to step back from posts that get my blood boiling, wait a while, re-read, wait a while and then perhaps respond. Replying in the heat of the moment seems to be the cause of many a flame war.
Your mileage may vary of course.

[Eva]

It's not my usual thing to step into political discussions but I am getting very sick of this now. I don't like the provoking manner in wich some people state their opinions and beliefs at all. In this case in my view mostly Annie's Dad and Paularoid. PA Randy is a bit on the edge for me too sometimes.

Really, I don't need you guys to tell me what is wrong or right in this world. I have ears and eyes and can form my own opinions. I don't need you to tell me what politics I should follow or not. I don't give a damn if you are a democrat, a liberal, a republican or whatever. And besides that I care about the politics in my own country and in Europe much more than about those in the USA.

As Pulmike already said; you can not convince anyone like this. Not me either. And as these kind of 'discussions' only seem to bring a bad atmosphere here I wonder why you are doing this at all. Do you mean to provoke and piss people off? Is that your idea of fun?

Give it a rest and talk about things that are indeed interesting. Go play frustrated little boys somewhere else. In case you want to hurl some mud at me now; go ahead. I won't be reading it anyhow.

Eva

[david uk]

Give it a rest and talk about things that are indeed interesting. Go play frustrated little boys somewhere else.
Eva.

my feelings exactly.

I know this is the Zoo, but that is no excuse, we are all mature adults here... or are we??

I'm also getting really fed up with all this crap. It's spoling my enjoyment of the message board

[Wildflower Fever]

I agree mostly with DaveM, that in a complicated and messy world, there isn't enough discussion. Although this thread may have been at times ugly, it seems to have cooled now, and that's all that really matters. I'll take ugly, heated discussion at this time in history, rather than none at all. This probably stems from the people I meet daily and for some reason have more political discourse with than past years, and the things I hear can't allow me to remain silent. The key is if you can leave that discourse on peaceful terms at least feeling that both sides have been provoked to see the other side more clearly. Those who stand on perches scolding us are indeed flinging poo in their own way, so self-righteous. That, and I still love you all, but why don't you just avoid all political threads then and stick to puppy dogs and Ziggy clippings.:D

[ponytail]

Just a thought...I've gotten to a point where, if I see someone expressing an opinion here that raises my blood pressure, I just leave it behind and don't respond to it. We have an ignore list. If certain posters get on our nerves, we can just put them on it, and then we won't see their posts. It's a great tool. I've used it. It takes a lot less energy than attacking people, and it doesn't contribute any energy to keeping arguments going.

I'm not directing these remarks to anyone in particular -- it's just how I protect myself from getting aggravated on here, and I thought mentioning it might be helpful.

[pulmike]

I don't want to ignore list anybody. Everyone involved posts interesting and worthwhile stuff most of the time. Hey, I'm no saint. I've said things I shouln't, done things I regret.

[david uk]

I don't want to ignore list anybody. Everyone involved posts interesting and worthwhile stuff most of the time. Hey, I'm no saint. I've said things I shouln't, done things I regret.

ditto Mike

I just think a little restraint and mutual respect is all that is needed.

[ponytail]

ditto Mike

I just think a little restraint and mutual respect is all that is needed.

Mike and David, I agree with both of you. I don't like to use the ignore list either -- I'm just suggesting that ignoring someone might be a preferable tactic to attacking them. I'm not talking about ordinary disagreements here, but situations where it can't go anywhere but from heated to ugly. It's not irreversible -- you have the option of removing the person from your ignore list at any time. You can just use it to give yourself some time to cool off.

Sometimes the only way to end an argument is to just walk away from it (especially on the internet, where the fighting can go on so long that administrators have to step in to stop it). I think the list option is offered here as a way of avoiding letting things get to that point.

[Randy & Betty in Pa]

Very interesting...

Good afternoon all.... Some of you I agree with, a few I don't but I did listen... I will say this, I can think of two times during my history on this board that I said things that I regretted and publically apologized for both.
All of you I respect nearly every person on this board.... I do not resort to name calling of those that disagree with others or other manners of flaming such as "Hit and run tactics" or "guilt tactics" with people I disagree with, nor do I take a position and then refuse to listen to the opinions of others...The past election has me sick and tired of such negative tactics... Those that know me know when I have something to say I say it openly and as a rule with as much respect I can muster... Now I could delete the things I've stated on this thread but you know I won't do that... I feel that I took a valid line. I get tired of those that base a position on obscure or infrequent incidents, 20 year old scandals, guilt by association and that kind of argument to bolster a position... As I said in the past, I can accept a position but let it be based on a persons opinion or facts and not based on political party spin and name calling...

To those that are upset by this thread, I'm sorry that you were upset... As to behavior unfitting of a rudie... Well I'm the same me I have always been... I do not imply that Janis or Betty or anyone other then I is responsible or even agrees with my position on anything... It's been said many times here for a very long time and I agree that "RESPECT" is a key.... I feel that my comments through this thread were opinion based and expressed in a manner to get a point accross while still making an effort to be respectful.

I would say to Eva and DavidUK that and others that prior to posting this I did take into consideration your expressed opinions and can see where your coming from and why you feel as you do BUT I also think if someone disagrees with an expressed idea or even the way that idea is presented they (or Myself or Cameracharacter or anyone else) should be given the consideration to express that opinion. It was expressed that we move onto "something interesting", Yet this board has been established with guide lines AND rules.... I like most here make every effort to obey the rules that I accepted when I joined...The ability to discuss things or opinions that to some are controversial is one of the reasons that this board is so good. Besides honestly different people find different things interesting.

Rather then to pressure the end of any debate if one finds a particular thread offensive yet still within the guidelines I generally just avoid the thread rather then attempting to censor a persons position or opinion...

In closing, I do apologise that some have become uncomfortable by this thread.... My position through this thread will stand for scrutiny if anyone isn't sure why I said what I did or to see if I crossed the line of being reasonably respectful.To limit debate is not a resolution to the problem we have seen here... Simple Respect is....

Best to all

R. from Pa

[MadMusician]

For those who don't like these kinds of threads, why not change the channel instead of requesting the show be taken off the air?

Recently, I felt frustrated by some of the posts/topics and took a vacation from the board. Then, I realized that I had the power all along (clicks red shoes) and have decided to ignore some of the more inflammatory remarks - for the most part ;) . I decided it just wasn't worth my time.

In my life, I've run into adults with outrageous viewpoints. Just listening to them, makes me cringe. I have come to the conclusion that they are usually brainwashed into a way of being and/or are benefiting from their opinion.

I recently was at a hair salon and the discussion turned to music. One gentleman said, "I hate country music. Twang - twang - twang. Etc..." I started to climb up onto my soapbox. I was going to DRILL him on what he knew about "country" music. I wanted to make him look foolish for criticizing something he obviously knew nothing about. I struggled and then just smiled at him and said, "I like country music." Talked about a few artists and their current projects and he shut up.

As Mr T said, "I pity the fool".

[Dee]

You are of course entirely correct, MM.

Abandoning an offensive thread is easier than getting the blood pressure up.

Opinions are like buttholes, everybody's got one. In the big picture of life, what does any of it matter, really? There's still plenty of good stuff to be found here. Perhaps a variation on "Don't ask, don't tell" could be "Don't like, don't look." LOL